3-2-1 Method

[Paul Lai]

I find that 300+F spares render better, and the crust very nice. Usually I lightly rub (no sugar) and maybe glaze (ala KKruger). The ribs look will like this

My attempts at lower the temps usually result in ribs not very well rendered, a little chewier, (even hammy), which I find typical of restaurant ribs. The higher heat (for me) result in a more succulent (not necessarily FOTB) product.

My one experience w/ crusty bark was when there was sugar in the rub. As a whole, my family prefers the glaze to sugar in the rub.

That been said, I've a 2009 WSM and measure only at the lid. My top-grate temp is probably 30-40F lower than the lid.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Paul Lai:


My top-grate temp is probably 30-40F lower than the lid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that explains it. There's a big difference between 275 and "300+" for the duration of a cook.

Also, just as all temp readings are not equal, not all spares are equal, either. Your spares that are perfectly cooked at temps over 250 without foiling are not gonna be the huge 5 pound ones so popular in the stores nowadays. This is why you might have heard or read the terms, "3 and 1/2 and downs" and "Four and Ups" that are mentioned in bbq cookbooks with accordingly varying cooking techniques.

 

[Paul Lai]

Dave: got references for the "3 and 1/2 and downs" discussion?

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Paul Lai:
Dave: got references for the "3 and 1/2 and downs" discussion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm not a competitor, but I have come across the terms in some cookbooks:

Legends of TX BBQ: "4 and up" p. 180
"""": "Broasted 4 and Ups" P. 182
"""": "3 1/2 and down P. 180

Paul Kirk's Championship BBQ: 3 1/2 and downs p. 206 listed under "Barbecue Lingo"

Great American BBq and Grilling Manual (Smoky Hale): "The choicest spareribs weigh in at less than three pounds--called "three and under" by those who get serious about such things. Larger ribs will be tougher and may require more magic to render them tender." P. 29

Celebrating Barbecue (Dotty Griffith): "three and down" p. 54

"and Wait, that's not All".......Countless sparerib recipes that simply mention "3 lb" or "3 lb or under" slabs of ribs.

Yes, I do have a bunch of bbq cookbooks, about 20 or so.

I think you'll find that a lot of the newer books that mention foiling are less prone to discuss rib selection. I can't pretend to know why in each case, but I do know from my own experience that the toughness of a slab of ribs (easiest gauged by weight) is not nearly a factor when braising in foil as when using typical grilling or bbqing techniques. Yes, you can get those big old tough slabs of ribs tender without braising, but you gotta go tried and true, low and slow, and then expect them to be a bit dry when they finally do get tender.

Coming from a typical southern heritage of hunting, it kind of reminds me of how my family has always divided bagged squirrels into two groups: the larger, older looking ones went into the pressure cooker, while the younger ones got fried.

Finally done editing this, and hope it helped!
Dave

 

[Ernie D]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DW Frommer II:
How exactly do you do it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My rib cooking at home has evolved from times and temps to this:

First, Cook the ribs till they are well done. This is the phase where I get my smoke ring, smoke flavor, and the outside develops some bark.

Next, foil and cook to desired tenderness. (usually 30 min for me)

Last, firm them back up on the grill without foil. This is where you can glaze them.

This technique works on any grill at almost any temp. It is a great way to control texture and time to service. You can even cook direct on a gasser or kettle with these steps. Just adjust the time and watch out for butter and sugar in the foil if direct...it will burn. You can always wrap in a towel and put into a cooler to hold during the foil stage if you need to time out service.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Paul Lai:
Dave: got references for the "3 and 1/2 and downs" discussion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul, I finally finished adding references to where I answered your queastion a couple of posts up, and I hope it helps anyone who is under the impression that all spare ribs are the same.

Like my comparison with squirrels, it's like this with most any critter: the older ones will be tougher and take different cooking techniques for desired results.

 

[Ernie D]

Dave,

Thanks for the great info. I have been trying to find out some tips for selecting good spares. The big tough ones have let me down a couple of times. It makes a lot of sense. Any tips for picking out baby backs?

 

[Paul Lai]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Finally done editing this, and hope it helped! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow Dave! I didn't expect such a list of references. Maybe I'll hit up a library, rather than buy all those volumes - got too many cookbooks as is ;-) Flip side, get rid of some of them the next garage sale

Your observations are certainly valued here! Thanks again for the info!

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernie D:
Dave,

Thanks for the great info. I have been trying to find out some tips for selecting good spares. The big tough ones have let me down a couple of times. It makes a lot of sense. Any tips for picking out baby backs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ribs are tough....pun intended. It's hard to find the spares from younger hogs, baby-backs are loinbacks under two pounds that primarily go to restaurants, and the other loinbacks are usually pretty pricey, especially this year.

I assume you mean loinbacks in general, and they're all gonna be much easier to render tender than spares, no matter what their size. You've heard the expression, "eatin' high on the hog." Well, they're higher on the hog than spares, and most folks, unlike the bbq crowd, simply grill 'em and don't mind the chew.

Regarding selecting though, I'd be more concerned about other things such as poor butchering and whether you want enhanced or not than size. Of course, I wouldn't be looking for the largest slabs at the store, either. I'm not that experienced with loinbacks, though, so maybe somebody else will chime in.

Dave

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Paul Lai:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Finally done editing this, and hope it helped! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow Dave! I didn't expect such a list of references. Maybe I'll hit up a library, rather than buy all those volumes - got too many cookbooks as is ;-) Flip side, get rid of some of them the next garage sale

Your observations are certainly valued here! Thanks again for the info! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul, not a problem, and your appreciation is most generous.

I just wish we could find those smaller spares at the grocery more often. The best meat market around here doesn't even have 3 and unders. I do find that I find smaller ribs available around major grilling holidays since more go to stores those weeks. Sometimes I'll buy a few more than I need and freeze if cryovacked.

 

[K Kruger]

Personally, I think the notion of rib selection as being some sort of 'issue' to be without much merit. Commercial pork is so standardized I don't find very much difference between rib slabs irrespective of weight. 'More magic'? Please. Thicker (weight doesn't matter much) simply means longer cooking. Trimmed SL style and the time isn't remarkably significant.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Personally, I think the notion of rib selection as being some sort of 'issue' to be without much merit. Commercial pork is so standardized I don't find very much difference between rib slabs irrespective of weight. 'More magic'? Please. Thicker (weight doesn't matter much) simply means longer cooking. Trimmed SL style and the time isn't remarkably significant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin, I agree about the standardization. Around here, bronto slabs are pretty standard now, most around five pounds, except that the local store across the highway also has St. Louis trimmed ribs that are typically three and unders. They cost a whole lot more, and I guess the smaller ones are easier to trim than the big brontos.

Anyway, if not foiling, would I be safe to assume from what you've written that you'd cook the big brontos at as high a temp as you would the three and under St. Louis ribs? (I think I've read that you cook ribs at 300 plus and wrap in foil for adding flavor and all, but I'm just saying, if you had to skip the foil.)

...or, I guess my queastion is: skipping any steaming or braising in foil, in your experience, what's the optimum temp for the big bronto spares, and will it be the same with the three and under St. louis ribs?

Dave

 

[Guy Wallace]

I have just sucked it up and paid for the top a the line loin backs here running $3.49 to $3.79 a lb of late 6 slabs cost me <span class="ev_code_RED">$66.00</span> yesterday for the holiday

. But there extremly meaty and cook up perfect with no foiling ! take anywere from 4.5 hrs to as long as 7 hrs on low and slow with avg temp of say 235 to 250 .I start checking them @ 4 hrs but there never done ! I hate fall off the bone but I want real tender I use a majority of Hickory with some apple tossed the K! Thats how we roll here YMMV

 

[K Kruger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyway, if not foiling, would I be safe to assume from what you've written that you'd cook the big brontos at as high a temp as you would the three and under St. Louis ribs? (I think I've read that you cook ribs at 300 plus and wrap in foil for adding flavor and all, but I'm just saying, if you had to skip the foil.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dave-- Yes, I cook at the same temp, ~325-350. And I do not always foil. I do not find larger ribs to be significantly 'tougher' than smaller ribs. Commercial pork has been hybridized to grow quickly. The pigs are fairly young at slaughter.

Mostly, though, I try to avoid commercial pork whenever possible.

Guy-- I'd be lucky to pay less than $5/lb for backs where I am in Florida. They're less available. Until we had an influx of coastal city people into the county a few years ago I almost never saw them. Like in many other rural places, locals here aren't very interested in backs. They want 'real' ribs. I don't disagree.

Paul-- I measure temps at the lid as well. Without water in the pan, I don't find much of a spread between grate and lid temps.

Btw, 'babyback' is a marketing term. Though sometimes used to denote smaller slabs, weight doesn't matter and the term is up for grabs.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyway, if not foiling, would I be safe to assume from what you've written that you'd cook the big brontos at as high a temp as you would the three and under St. Louis ribs? (I think I've read that you cook ribs at 300 plus and wrap in foil for adding flavor and all, but I'm just saying, if you had to skip the foil.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dave-- Yes, I cook at the same temp, ~325-350. And I do not always foil. I do not find larger ribs to be significantly 'tougher' than smaller ribs. Commercial pork has been hybridized to grow quickly. The pigs are fairly young at slaughter.

Mostly, though, I try to avoid commercial pork whenever possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin,

So what's regarded as one of the toughest parts on a hog, spare ribs, doesn't need to be slow cooked at low temps like most folks still think? They're all from young hogs, and you're saying you can roast them for the same tenderness?

Spares are real cheap now because of the holiday, so I might give it a try. Can you roast pork butts, too, for same results?

You saying that "low and slow" is a thing of the past when what was being butchered was older hogs? Hmmmm...so why did I buy a wsm?

I thought you hi temp guys needed to use foil to help render tender.

Thanks for the response!
Dave

 

[K Kruger]

They are tough. What makes them work fine at higher temps is their overall thinness (unlike butt) and their relative leanness. (Though thought of as 'fatty' commercial pork is far leaner than it was years ago, and significantly leaner than pastured, heritage breeds - the reason I prefer heritage pork - that and the better flavor. heritage pork I cook at lower temps.)

The 'done window' is much narrower when cooking at high temps so one has to be careful.

Whether one considers the results the same, better, or not as good is subjective. I prefer higher heat for ribs because, imo, I can get the juicy, tender ribs without the time or dryness that can occur with low/slow.

I'm not saying low/slow is a thing of the past. Many people prefer it. Many think is is necessary though for everything, and imo it is not. I do think butts do better at lower temps because of their size. (But I do not think they have to be as low as some like to cook.) Briskets I prefer to do high heat - but, imo, they require foiling due to their structure. I do prefer low/slow for Prime or Wagyu briskets, as I do for heritage pork. And, of course, bacon...

An advantage to a WSM for cooking at HH is the distance between fuel and food. Sometimes the short distance in a kettle, say, causes problems.

 

[Dave Russell]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
They are tough. What makes them work fine at higher temps is their overall thinness (unlike butt) and their relative leanness. (Though thought of as 'fatty' commercial pork is far leaner than it was years ago, and significantly leaner than pastured, heritage breeds - the reason I prefer heritage pork - that and the better flavor. heritage pork I cook at lower temps.)

The 'done window' is much narrower when cooking at high temps so one has to be careful.

Whether one considers the results the same, better, or not as good is subjective. I prefer higher heat for ribs because, imo, I can get the juicy, tender ribs without the time or dryness that can occur with low/slow.

I'm not saying low/slow is a thing of the past. Many people prefer it. Many think is is necessary though for everything, and imo it is not. I do think butts do better at lower temps because of their size. (But I do not think they have to be as low as some like to cook.) Briskets I prefer to do high heat - but, imo, they require foiling due to their structure. I do prefer low/slow for Prime or Wagyu briskets, as I do for heritage pork. And, of course, bacon...

An advantage to a WSM for cooking at HH is the distance between fuel and food. Sometimes the short distance in a kettle, say, causes problems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin, thanks, for your perspective! That's a great explanation, and I'm really gonna take all that into consideration from now on! I have no low and slow sacred cows, trust me.

Ray, I just realized I've taken us off topic

, so please accept my apology for that.