What Was Kingsford THINKING??!!


 

Mike C.

TVWBB Member
For years I've used lump charcoal almost exclusively for direct grilling. But recently I've been wanting to get into low and slow cooking. This came about after a miserably failed attempt at doing a brisket on the Weber kettle. I love Steve Raichlen's books (I have most of them) but anything that requires more than about 2 hours cooking just aint gonna work out too well on a kettle no matter what claims he may make in his books to the contrary. That's been my experience anyway.

For my smoker I quickly narrowed down to the WSM. I really liked it when I read you could get about a 14 hour burn from about 10 LBs of Kingsford. That sounded great since Kingsford is also cheaper than lump charcoal. But then I was surprised to learn here at the Virtual Bullet site that Kingsford had changed the formula of their briquettes in 2006.

Question: Has everyone come to a consensus on the New Kingsford by now? I was reading through threads in the archive and I wasn't able to determine one way or the other. The impression I get is the new stuff burns hotter, burns out quicker and requires more charcoal throughout process. That doesn't sound so good for smoking.

I remember back in the early 80s when Coca Cola changed their formula and the uproar that caused. It was only a short time before they brought the old formula back as "Coke Classic" and kept the new formula as well. Direct grilling and smoking are two COMPLETELY different things. It seems to me the people at Kingsford would be wise to package two different formulas for each of those applications. It doesn't look like that's gonna happen though.

I still have one brand new unopened 24 LB bag of the old formula in my shed. It's been there for years since lump charcoal has worked so well for me on the kettle. I hate that that's all I have left! Maybe I should list it on ebay as a rare collector's item.

So what is everybody using now? What has the longest burn time? Is Kingsford still the best recommendation? Doesn't seem like it should be...
 
Welcome Mike.

I think the consensus is that new K works as well as the old if you understand the differences in how it lights. I does light quicker so it will burn up more BTUs inside the chimney if you let it go as long as old K. However, it still gives off the not so nice funky aroma as it lights, which many people find unappealing.

As far as low-and-slow in the kettle, I certainly wouldn't want to dissuade you from getting a bullet if you have already made the plunge, but it is possible to use a kettle for Q with a couple of fire bricks. See this thread for an extended discussion. Of course the WSM will have better control and more cooking space than a kettle set up this way. But the kettle does have the advantage of using about half the fuel as the WSM for smoking one small item the size of a pork butt or chuck roast, so I'll often use it for something like a chuck when I don't care if the temp creeps up on me.
 
What's wrong with using Lump in the WSM? All I use in my wsm is lump and it works great. I've gotten 14 hours out of ring that wasn't even full. It burns steady and I get a constant grate temp of about 235 degrees.

If you ever wonder what any company is thinking when they change a product it's called PROFIT.
 
I never understood the uproar over the change. I get 18 hours + on the WSM with a full charcoal ring using the Minion Method using the new K. It went 26+ with nothing on it for an overnight test run.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Branon S.:
What's wrong with using Lump in the WSM? All I use in my wsm is lump and it works great. I've gotten 14 hours out of ring that wasn't even full. It burns steady and I get a constant grate temp of about 235 degrees. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My only concern with using lump charcoal in a WSM would be what David mentioned about it requiring more charcoal. I'm cheap... I also didn't know you could get 14 hours from lump charcoal. That actually makes lump more appealing if you take away the cost factor.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike C.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Branon S.:
What's wrong with using Lump in the WSM? All I use in my wsm is lump and it works great. I've gotten 14 hours out of ring that wasn't even full. It burns steady and I get a constant grate temp of about 235 degrees. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My only concern with using lump charcoal in a WSM would be what David mentioned about it requiring more charcoal. I'm cheap... I also didn't know you could get 14 hours from lump charcoal. That actually makes lump more appealing if you take away the cost factor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
All charcoal, lump and briquettes, are sold by weight. Lump weighs much less than, say, Kingsford .. Soooo, if you fill the charcoal ring with K, it'll be close to 10 lbs. But, if you fill it with lump, it will be less than half that. With burn times just a little less with lump than K, I think it's more economical.
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Bill
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by David Lohrentz:
Welcome Mike.

As far as low-and-slow in the kettle, I certainly wouldn't want to dissuade you from getting a bullet if you have already made the plunge, but it is possible to use a kettle for Q with a couple of fire bricks. See this thread for an extended discussion. Of course the WSM will have better control and more cooking space than a kettle set up this way. But the kettle does have the advantage of using about half the fuel as the WSM for smoking one small item the size of a pork butt or chuck roast, so I'll often use it for something like a chuck when I don't care if the temp creeps up on me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

David I'll definitely check out that thread. But are you saying you can cook as long as you can in an MSM? My efforts so far with 2 briskets have been dismal. My first attempt resulted in something that could be used to facet diamonds. The second one came out barely edible. I also made a failed attempt at an expensive prime rib. After my experiences I can't even force my mind to imagine doing long cooks with a kettle.
 
How much are you paying for lump? I can get way more cooks out of one 20lb bag of lump than briquettes. Plus, what is not burned up i can reuse. Briquettes that don't burn are usually brittle and unusuable.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike C.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Branon S.:
What's wrong with using Lump in the WSM? All I use in my wsm is lump and it works great. I've gotten 14 hours out of ring that wasn't even full. It burns steady and I get a constant grate temp of about 235 degrees. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My only concern with using lump charcoal in a WSM would be what David mentioned about it requiring more charcoal. I'm cheap... I also didn't know you could get 14 hours from lump charcoal. That actually makes lump more appealing if you take away the cost factor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Long time lump user here. Ok the first thing to get more burn time out of any charcoal is don't put water in the pan. Line it with foil, use sand, or a clay saucer. They all work fine. It takes fuel to keep that water hot so... I have tried many, many brands of lump over the years and most are good, afew are great and a few are a waste of money. What's a good lump to use? Well alot of lump is a regional thing except for Royal Oak (good stuff) and Kingsford has lump out now (don't waste your money). Here's a link and read up on what you can get in your area There's phone #'s on that site so you can call and find out if it's in your area. I did that with Humphrey's Lump and it's near me (great lump). Kingsford lump was the shortest burn time at 14 hrs for a full ring. Royal Oak comes in at 16hrs, B&B Oak and Ozark Oak 17-18 hrs, Humphrey's and the Old Wicked Good Competion lump both are 20 hrs. I have used many more brands, but you can see there's a big difference. Use the double grate mod, it does 2 things for lump. 1 it keeps the small pieces from falling through and 2 it cuts down the airflow up through the grate helping with keeping temps down. HTH
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bryan S:

...B&B Oak and Ozark Oak 17-18 hrs... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm interesting I just tossed out my last empty bag of lump charcoal but I'm pretty sure it was B&B oak.

Branon I don't remember how much I paid for my lump last time. Seems like it was in the $8 or $9 range. I'm just drawing a blank. But something you said has me wondering now. Am I to understand that the 7 LB bags (I think that's what it was) of lump are somewhat equivalent to say a 20 LB bag of briquettes? Or maybe 15 or 16 LBs? Is that how it works? If so that would make it more even in price. I was thinking in terms of pound for pound lump seemed more expensive. I've never done any direct comparisons between lump and briquettes. Quite frankly I've been stumbling around in the dark for too long. Ask me about computers or woodworking and I might actually sound intelligent...

BTW I had discovered through T&E that I could reuse the remaining lump charcoals successfully unlike briquettes. Although I will say I've had some success using semi-spent briquettes in the chimney to start up fresh ones. Seemed better than just tossing them.
 
I've had over 24 hour burns with lump.

What is great about lump though, is the re-use factor.

I'll clean out the ash only after several burns.

I'll start with about 10-12 lbs of lump. If I'm doing butts, probably 1/3 of it is left.

I pay $9 for 15lb bag. Probably works out to about $5 per burn.

But the quality of the cook using quality lump is far superior IMO.
 
David I just finished reading through the thread on slow cooking with a kettle. I had not pulled the trigger yet on an WSM so I'm definitely going to try it again with my kettle. I had just about abandoned hope of doing anything more than 2 hours cooks. I was stumbling close to some of what I found in that thread. Just hadn't connected all the dots. The fire bricks I hadn't thought of. I had figured out to put the charcoal to one side. I had been taking Steve Raichlen's instruction to put coals on either side and the meat in the middle. Dismally bad idea. I've figured out the proper vent settings and I'm very aware of the heat variations. I didn't know about the minion method until the last few days when I started looking into a WSM. I like the idea that I can get some good mileage out of a fairly small amount of lump charcoal which is what I prefer to use. Any tips on doing a brisket? That's what I'm after right now. I'm sure I could do ribs and chicken with no problem. But is a brisket doable? And when I say doable I mean how close will it come to something out of a WSM? You mentioned you were using the older one with 3 separate vents. I have the one touch vents which I don't really like. The best I've been able to figure is to put the coals as best I can over 2 of those slots and just shut them way down with the top vent located on the opposite side. Or should I try to get the coals over just one slot? Also do you think it would help to put another 2 fire bricks on the cooking grate directly above the 2 below?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But are you saying you can cook as long as you can in an MSM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I would not say that, but I would say that if you try the technique in that thread, you can cook long enough to do a brisket or pork butt. You may have to add some fuel mid-way, but if you have a cooking grate with the hinges, doing that once is no big deal.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My efforts so far with 2 briskets have been dismal. My first attempt resulted in something that could be used to facet diamonds. The second one came out barely edible. I also made a failed attempt at an expensive prime rib. After my experiences I can't even force my mind to imagine doing long cooks with a kettle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sounds as though you either under-cooked or over-cooked your brisket. Can't say about the rib roast, but that isn't a big deal to do one in a kettle and really works better there than in a WSM since high temps work well for that.

Whatever problems you are having now, it doesn't sound to me as though the cooker is the primary one. Whether you get a WSM or not you need to know:

1) how to control the cooker temp
2) how to measure the cooker temp
3) how to tell when meat is done.

There isn't a fundamental difference in any of these things between a kettle and a WSM. Whether you get a WSM or not, getting a handle on these three things will be your ticket to good eats on the smoker/kettle.
 
Quote:

Whatever problems you are having now, it doesn't sound to me as though the cooker is the primary one. Whether you get a WSM or not you need to know:

1) how to control the cooker temp
2) how to measure the cooker temp
3) how to tell when meat is done.


Yeah...you're getting close to what I'm struggling with. I need to get some temp probes for one thing. I'm seeing everyone has them in their pics. I really can't tell by eye, smell or touch when meat is done. Usually what happens is one time I stick an instant read in there and it's below finished temp. Next thing you know it's overdone. I've been relying on recipes from books as starting points and they've been steering me the wrong direction. Anytime I've attempted a cook past a few hours it's been a complete disaster. I know pretty much all the ways NOT to cook meat now. It's sad and embarrassing really. Anyone ever see National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation where he cuts into the turkey and it shrivels to nothing and then you see them gnawing on these dried up pieces. Been there... I mean you've got no choice but to try to salvage what you can from $15 or $20 worth of meat, all that time wasted as well as the charcoal and the rub spices. I'm sure many of you are getting a good chuckle.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I really can't tell by eye, smell or touch when meat is done. Usually what happens is one time I stick an instant read in there and it's below finished temp. Next thing you know it's overdone. I've been relying on recipes from books as starting points and they've been steering me the wrong direction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of this you'll get used to as you cook more and have more successful cooks. You need a probe to tell you when a roast is, say, med-rare, or when a chicken has hit safe internals, but you don't really need one--turned on anyway--for barbecue. Though a remote probe reading might tell you when to start checking for done, it is the feel of the probe going into the meat--not a specific temp--that will let you know whether your meat is done or needs more time. When meat like brisket, butt, ribs and chuck is tender the probe will go in with little to no resistance. Temps can vary but the feel when these meats are tender does not.
 
i have no problem doing long cooks on my kettles. good success all the time. just need about 5 minutes of prep time. as to kingsford i hate the stuff. yea, you can use it but why if you can get better stuff. it stinks, it burns funny, it has alot of ash and the ash is super gritty. like sand is added. not cheap if you can't find a deal. just better choices.
 
Mike,

I agree with Kevin that internal temp does not determine when your meat is done with our typical Q, aside from chicken. It is done when the meat is tender. The internal temp is just an indicator to start checking for tender.

Let me suggest that the more urgent purchase for you rather than a WSM is a couple of good thermometers. These are items that will help you dramatically with the issues you are having now, and can be used both with a kettle and with a Bullet. A lot of the cheap "instant read" thermometers are garbage. Get yourself a good probe thermometer. Remote probes are nice since they allow you to see the temp while inside your home.

A real instant probe like the $90 thermapen or the $25 Comark PDT300 are super handy. Not so much for barbecue, but with things like prime rib, steak, chicken, or fish these are really useful.

And I recommend this thermometer to monitor the cooker temp of either a kettle or a WSM. You just stick it in one vent hole and you are good to go. I like that it goes all the way down to 50 degrees so you can use it when you are cold smoking.
 
I cannot comment on the Kingsford because I just started BBQing last summer for real. However, before I owned the WSM, I was using my Weber Silver One Touch 22 1/2 for smoking ribs. You can set the kettle up by putting charcoal on the left side and an aluminum pan on the right with water in it. You`ll put the meat over the pan and by adjusting vents and adding charcoal every 90 - 120 minutes, you will be able to do an extended smoke on the kettle. Obviously not like the WSM but for smaller pieces of meat, the kettle is fine.
 
I've used kingsford and hadn't experienced any probs but read somewhere that the Kroger brand was even better. I bought a couple 10 lb bags so I'm gonna try it. I had read it was made by royal oak and was supposed to be cleaner burning. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>GOT SMOKE!!!
 

 

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