russell swift
TVWBB Super Fan
I have a brief question pertaining to the rub on a pork butt....has anyone ever applied a wash (apple juice, vinegar mix) to the meat before applying the rub? Would it make the bark any tastier? sweeter?
What causes the smoke ring?
- Thread starter Kirk Boorman
- Start date
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Some people use Worcestershire as well. It's not really possible to get enough liquid on there to make much of a difference in taste (most is, after all, water); some feel it helps the rub stick better. If you want more flavor in the bark you're better off adding to or changing your rub ingredients, imo.
Alan Rockwood
TVWBB Member
Here's my theory on the smoke ring. It is only a speculation, and I don't have any proof to back it up.
My guess is that the smoke ring comes from the reaction of carbon monoxide from the charcoal fire with myoglobin in the meat.
My somewhat flimsy reason for this theory is that carbon monoxide is known to change the color of hemoglobin in the blood. Myoglobin, which is present in high quantities in red meat, is similar to hemoglobin in some of its properties. Therefore, it might react with carbon monoxide from the charcoal fire, thereby changing color and possibly producing the smoke ring.
My guess is that the smoke ring comes from the reaction of carbon monoxide from the charcoal fire with myoglobin in the meat.
My somewhat flimsy reason for this theory is that carbon monoxide is known to change the color of hemoglobin in the blood. Myoglobin, which is present in high quantities in red meat, is similar to hemoglobin in some of its properties. Therefore, it might react with carbon monoxide from the charcoal fire, thereby changing color and possibly producing the smoke ring.
Morgan Sziraki
TVWBB Pro
Hi Alan
Oxygen will bind with myoglobin to form oxymyoglobin, and carbon monoxided has an even greater affinity. This compound is not very stable and will break down to metmyoglobin which is rusty brown in colour.
Combustion of wood forms nitrogen dioxide and nitrous acid in the presence of water which will react with myoglobin to form nitrosomyoglobin a stable, pinkish red compound.
This is what will make the ring.
btw
Welcome to the board.
morgan
Oxygen will bind with myoglobin to form oxymyoglobin, and carbon monoxided has an even greater affinity. This compound is not very stable and will break down to metmyoglobin which is rusty brown in colour.
Combustion of wood forms nitrogen dioxide and nitrous acid in the presence of water which will react with myoglobin to form nitrosomyoglobin a stable, pinkish red compound.
This is what will make the ring.
btw
Welcome to the board.
morgan
My next question would be "does the temperature of the smoke effect the ring or is it just the burning of the wood?" According to posts on this site it's the temp that effects the ring and it's size<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Morgan Sziraki:
Hi Alan
Oxygen will bind with myoglobin to form oxymyoglobin, and carbon monoxided has an even greater affinity. This compound is not very stable and will break down to metmyoglobin which is rusty brown in colour.
Combustion of wood forms nitrogen dioxide and nitrous acid in the presence of water which will react with myoglobin to form nitrosomyoglobin a stable, pinkish red compound.
This is what will make the ring.
btw
Welcome to the board.
morgan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Alan
Oxygen will bind with myoglobin to form oxymyoglobin, and carbon monoxided has an even greater affinity. This compound is not very stable and will break down to metmyoglobin which is rusty brown in colour.
Combustion of wood forms nitrogen dioxide and nitrous acid in the presence of water which will react with myoglobin to form nitrosomyoglobin a stable, pinkish red compound.
This is what will make the ring.
btw
Welcome to the board.
morgan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
adam clyde
TVWBB Pro
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bryan S:
I'm going to throw this into the mix. What contributes to a smokering not forming? The thickness of your rub i.e. a rub high in sugar? One would think that if you used a rub that contained alot of sugar that this would or could stop a deep smokering from forming. Once the sugar melted it would seem to me that it could form a shell(think candy apples here) as to block the smokering from forming. I wonder what the difference would be in the smokering if 2 butts were cooked on the WSM. One with a high sugar content rub and one with no rub on it. Would the smokerings be the same depth? I wonder. Just thought i would throw this out there and see what others think.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bryan - my very uneducated guess would be that I don't think the sugar would prevent a smoke ring. Assuming that everyone elses observations/sciences are correct and that the smoke ring stops at around 140, then I don't think the sugar will have had time to melt and form a protective "shell" from preventing the smoke ring. It seems that would have to happen at a temperature higher than 140.
Just a thought... who knows.
I'm going to throw this into the mix. What contributes to a smokering not forming? The thickness of your rub i.e. a rub high in sugar? One would think that if you used a rub that contained alot of sugar that this would or could stop a deep smokering from forming. Once the sugar melted it would seem to me that it could form a shell(think candy apples here) as to block the smokering from forming. I wonder what the difference would be in the smokering if 2 butts were cooked on the WSM. One with a high sugar content rub and one with no rub on it. Would the smokerings be the same depth? I wonder. Just thought i would throw this out there and see what others think.
Bryan - my very uneducated guess would be that I don't think the sugar would prevent a smoke ring. Assuming that everyone elses observations/sciences are correct and that the smoke ring stops at around 140, then I don't think the sugar will have had time to melt and form a protective "shell" from preventing the smoke ring. It seems that would have to happen at a temperature higher than 140.
Just a thought... who knows.
adam clyde
TVWBB Pro
candied brisket. Now that sounds really, really good. Kind of like Chris' recipe for pig candy. I'm all for it.
I'll have mine dipped in cherry, thanks.
I'll have mine dipped in cherry, thanks.
Morgan Sziraki
TVWBB Pro
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Of course the smoke needs to be present, but the reaction occurs in the early part of the cook and quits at 140 (some say 130). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Alot of proteins dissociate in the 120s so it could well be lower than 140. I've also heard of people (try this FAQ) that cook at a lower temp for the first hour.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Kit Anderson--
I just got a copy of 'Professional Charcuterie' on Bill Ackerman's recommendation. It is a great book on sausage making. One particular point of interest is the smoking technique. Most of the recipes involving smoking call for putting the meat in at 135F for a hour, going up to 155F, then higher until the internal temp reaches 160F.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course the smoke needs to be present, but the reaction occurs in the early part of the cook and quits at 140 (some say 130). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Alot of proteins dissociate in the 120s so it could well be lower than 140. I've also heard of people (try this FAQ) that cook at a lower temp for the first hour.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Kit Anderson--
I just got a copy of 'Professional Charcuterie' on Bill Ackerman's recommendation. It is a great book on sausage making. One particular point of interest is the smoking technique. Most of the recipes involving smoking call for putting the meat in at 135F for a hour, going up to 155F, then higher until the internal temp reaches 160F.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by adam clyde:
Bryan - my very uneducated guess would be that I don't think the sugar would prevent a smoke ring. Assuming that everyone elses observations/sciences are correct and that the smoke ring stops at around 140, then I don't think the sugar will have had time to melt and form a protective "shell" from preventing the smoke ring. It seems that would have to happen at a temperature higher than 140.
Just a thought... who knows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Without draging this out here goes. So the moisture from the meat isn't going to make the sugar dissolve or paprika form a thick paste? A rub with a high Paprika content which is a very fine powder when wet turns into a paste like flour will not hinder a smokering from forming? The temp inside a smoker is 250 degrees not sure what the temp of the meat(140) has to do with sugar melting since the rub is on the outside of the wet meat and is exposed to the 250 degree temp of the smoker? So when i put a rub on the meat and it turns all wet and the paprika forms a thick paste this has no bearing on wether a smokering forms or not? So why do some say they put their meat in cold but didn't get hardly any smokering? I think what kind of rub and what some of the ingredients are plays a role in how much of a smokering you get.I can tell you when i use a rub with a high paprika content the smokering is not all that great. Just used one yesterday on a picnic and the ring was not all that great compared to using a rub that doesn't contain lots of paprika. Of course as always this is just my opion.
Bryan - my very uneducated guess would be that I don't think the sugar would prevent a smoke ring. Assuming that everyone elses observations/sciences are correct and that the smoke ring stops at around 140, then I don't think the sugar will have had time to melt and form a protective "shell" from preventing the smoke ring. It seems that would have to happen at a temperature higher than 140.
Just a thought... who knows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Without draging this out here goes. So the moisture from the meat isn't going to make the sugar dissolve or paprika form a thick paste? A rub with a high Paprika content which is a very fine powder when wet turns into a paste like flour will not hinder a smokering from forming? The temp inside a smoker is 250 degrees not sure what the temp of the meat(140) has to do with sugar melting since the rub is on the outside of the wet meat and is exposed to the 250 degree temp of the smoker? So when i put a rub on the meat and it turns all wet and the paprika forms a thick paste this has no bearing on wether a smokering forms or not? So why do some say they put their meat in cold but didn't get hardly any smokering? I think what kind of rub and what some of the ingredients are plays a role in how much of a smokering you get.I can tell you when i use a rub with a high paprika content the smokering is not all that great. Just used one yesterday on a picnic and the ring was not all that great compared to using a rub that doesn't contain lots of paprika. Of course as always this is just my opion.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Alot of proteins dissociate in the 120s so it could well be lower than 140. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It could. My statement reflects the opinion of others whom I trust and mere anecdotal evidence. It is not something I've studied directly.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So the moisture from the meat isn't going to make the sugar dissolve or paprika form a thick paste? A rub with a high Paprika content which is a very fine powder when wet turns into a paste like flour will not hinder a smokering from forming? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I thought you were originally making a point about sugar only. My obsevations suggest that the quantity of sugar doesn't seem to have a lot to do with the lack of smokering formation. What I should have said--and here I agree with your comments--is that it seems more like the quantity (i.e., thickness) of the rub that has an impact. My rubs don't contain a lot of sugar but on butts I apply generously to get major bark to work into the pork when pulling. I do not get as much of a ring on these 'standard' butts as I do on butt pieces that I do not rub heavily. Extrapolating mentally from your suggestion, it would at least appear likely that if I used an even higher ratio of more dissolvable ingredients the ring would be lessened further. Of course the moisture on the meat's surface is evaporating (however slowly) and as it does, and the little penetrable nooks and crannies become available for the necessary smoke-protein interaction to occur, one would expect at least a bit of smokering formation, and that's pretty much what it looks like when I think about it.
So, yes, perhaps the lack of much of a ring on meat is due to lots of rub (my guess is with lots of dissolvable ingredients) blocking its formation, your original supposition. I'll have to pay greater attention and maybe experiment here and there.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So the moisture from the meat isn't going to make the sugar dissolve or paprika form a thick paste? A rub with a high Paprika content which is a very fine powder when wet turns into a paste like flour will not hinder a smokering from forming? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I thought you were originally making a point about sugar only. My obsevations suggest that the quantity of sugar doesn't seem to have a lot to do with the lack of smokering formation. What I should have said--and here I agree with your comments--is that it seems more like the quantity (i.e., thickness) of the rub that has an impact. My rubs don't contain a lot of sugar but on butts I apply generously to get major bark to work into the pork when pulling. I do not get as much of a ring on these 'standard' butts as I do on butt pieces that I do not rub heavily. Extrapolating mentally from your suggestion, it would at least appear likely that if I used an even higher ratio of more dissolvable ingredients the ring would be lessened further. Of course the moisture on the meat's surface is evaporating (however slowly) and as it does, and the little penetrable nooks and crannies become available for the necessary smoke-protein interaction to occur, one would expect at least a bit of smokering formation, and that's pretty much what it looks like when I think about it.
So, yes, perhaps the lack of much of a ring on meat is due to lots of rub (my guess is with lots of dissolvable ingredients) blocking its formation, your original supposition. I'll have to pay greater attention and maybe experiment here and there.
Kevin, On my post at the end of page 1 i asked about the thickness and the ingredients but forgot to put Paprika in there. My Bad.
I used to make and use Wild Willy's Number Onederful rub and that contains alot of paprika which i find offensive because of the mouthfeel from the paprika. I noticed long ago that i would not get a nice ring when using that rub. When i would use Head Country rub or another rub low in paprika a nice ring would form. Just was wondering if others had noticed this or not. The sugar getting wet and all combined with finely ground spices seems like it could have a big effect on the ring if put on too thick IMO.
Alan Rockwood
TVWBB Member
Morgan,
Thanks for the explanation of the nitrosomyoglobin chemistry.
Alan
Thanks for the explanation of the nitrosomyoglobin chemistry.
Alan
Morgan Sziraki
TVWBB Pro
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alan Rockwood:
Morgan,
Thanks for the explanation of the nitrosomyoglobin chemistry.
Alan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm glad I can still remember even a shred of physiology, it's been a while.
And Kevin, you're right: Experiment here and there.
You can start with a general assumption and seek to improve the results by varying a single component. If we didn't, we'd all be eating grey mush, or gruel.
Morgan,
Thanks for the explanation of the nitrosomyoglobin chemistry.
Alan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm glad I can still remember even a shred of physiology, it's been a while.
And Kevin, you're right: Experiment here and there.
You can start with a general assumption and seek to improve the results by varying a single component. If we didn't, we'd all be eating grey mush, or gruel.