thoughts on marinade (and cook method)?
- Thread starter Pinny
- Start date
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">True, marinade won't penetrate into partially frozen meat as fast. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
marinades don't really penetrate in any case. if you are looking for deeply flavored meat you'll have to brine for several days, or inject.
nice work Pinny, glad to hear it was a hit. I think maybe you are starting to see why I'm so particular about ingredients, most can be lost in the final product, so you really have to be skeptical at the start, whether the approach will work or not. But not so skeptical that you never try anything. ultimately it comes down to trial and error and being honest with yourself in the end product.
marinades don't really penetrate in any case. if you are looking for deeply flavored meat you'll have to brine for several days, or inject.
nice work Pinny, glad to hear it was a hit. I think maybe you are starting to see why I'm so particular about ingredients, most can be lost in the final product, so you really have to be skeptical at the start, whether the approach will work or not. But not so skeptical that you never try anything. ultimately it comes down to trial and error and being honest with yourself in the end product.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> marinades don't really penetrate in any case </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I disagree, they do penetrate. Just as with flavored brines, you generally need to let the meat marinate longer for stronger flavors. If they did not penetrate, then essentially the sauce created would merely be a baste and no need for the length of time in the liquid. Many recipes call for marinating up to 24 hours.
Paul
I disagree, they do penetrate. Just as with flavored brines, you generally need to let the meat marinate longer for stronger flavors. If they did not penetrate, then essentially the sauce created would merely be a baste and no need for the length of time in the liquid. Many recipes call for marinating up to 24 hours.
Paul
Phil Hartcher
TVWBB All-Star
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">marinades don't really penetrate in any case. if you are looking for deeply flavored meat you'll have to brine for several days, or inject. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A basic marinade should contain a balance between acid, oil and spices. The oil should be able to emulsify with the acid, and not become a protective coating for the meat. The acid is there to help tenderize the meat and enable the spices to penetrate the subsurface of the meat. The selected spices are to impart the desired flavour. It is similar to the brining process except that the salt moves into the meat cells through osmosis and takes some of the flavours with it. When cooking something that is brined the salt helps retain the moisture in the cells making the meat juicier and more flavoursome, however this is sometimes at the expense of making the food taste saltier. Some cultures prefer this flavour over a sweet flavour. the use of sugar along with salt masks the saltiness to a degree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A basic marinade should contain a balance between acid, oil and spices. The oil should be able to emulsify with the acid, and not become a protective coating for the meat. The acid is there to help tenderize the meat and enable the spices to penetrate the subsurface of the meat. The selected spices are to impart the desired flavour. It is similar to the brining process except that the salt moves into the meat cells through osmosis and takes some of the flavours with it. When cooking something that is brined the salt helps retain the moisture in the cells making the meat juicier and more flavoursome, however this is sometimes at the expense of making the food taste saltier. Some cultures prefer this flavour over a sweet flavour. the use of sugar along with salt masks the saltiness to a degree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A basic marinade should contain a balance between acid, oil and spices. The oil should be able to emulsify with the acid, and not become a protective coating for the meat. The acid is there to help tenderize the meat and enable the spices to penetrate the subsurface of the meat. The selected spices are to impart the desired flavour. It is similar to the brining process except that the salt moves into the meat cells through osmosis and takes some of the flavours with it. When cooking something that is brined the salt helps retain the moisture in the cells making the meat juicier and more flavoursome, however this is sometimes at the expense of making the food taste saltier. Some cultures prefer this flavour over a sweet flavour. the use of sugar along with salt masks the saltiness to a degree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Phil, what's the source for this quote?
As far as I read, acid is capable of softening the surface of the meat but can't really do more than that. And this denaturing of surface proteins can actually create a barrier to flavor penetration.
Flavors need salt. I like to brine because it enhances the pork or white chicken flavors, which need all the help they can get. I'm not sure saltier can ever be considered a bad thing if in proportion.
all just opinions, of course, compelling data can easily change them, I like to stay open minded.
Phil, what's the source for this quote?
As far as I read, acid is capable of softening the surface of the meat but can't really do more than that. And this denaturing of surface proteins can actually create a barrier to flavor penetration.
Flavors need salt. I like to brine because it enhances the pork or white chicken flavors, which need all the help they can get. I'm not sure saltier can ever be considered a bad thing if in proportion.
all just opinions, of course, compelling data can easily change them, I like to stay open minded.
Phil Hartcher
TVWBB All-Star
My understanding and what I was taught is - Basically a marinate tends to penetrate between the cell structure, whereas a brine penetrates the cells through the osmosis effect. The brine also penetrates between the cell structure. The salt in both retains fluid however the fluids between the cell structure can disapate when cooking whilst the fluid in the cell will be retained longer.
Check out Marination in Wikipedia.
Cheers
Check out Marination in Wikipedia.
Cheers
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My understanding and what I was taught is - Basically a marinate tends to penetrate between the cell structure, whereas a brine penetrates the cells through the osmosis effect. The brine also penetrates between the cell structure. The salt in both retains fluid however the fluids between the cell structure can disapate when cooking whilst the fluid in the cell will be retained longer.
Check out Marination in Wikipedia.
Cheers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Never heard it summed up that way, but it sounds plausible.
I think it was Kevin who suggested a "mari-brine." So I tend to hedge my bets by making my marinades fairly salty.
At the start, it would be helpful to know whether a target flavor is soluble in oil, or water and helped by either salt or acid, but unless you have a degree in molecular gastronomy, you can only guess.
Check out Marination in Wikipedia.
Cheers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Never heard it summed up that way, but it sounds plausible.
I think it was Kevin who suggested a "mari-brine." So I tend to hedge my bets by making my marinades fairly salty.
At the start, it would be helpful to know whether a target flavor is soluble in oil, or water and helped by either salt or acid, but unless you have a degree in molecular gastronomy, you can only guess.
Pete Hannan
New member
Olive oil, Rosemary/Thyme, Garlic cloves (skin on but crushed), Sea Salt, Peppercorns (lots of), and Wine vinegar.
Marinade for three days !
Never use water, it rots beef !
Pete.
Marinade for three days !
Never use water, it rots beef !
Pete.
Phil Hartcher
TVWBB All-Star
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pete Hannan:
Olive oil, Rosemary/Thyme, Garlic cloves (skin on but crushed), Sea Salt, Peppercorns (lots of), and Wine vinegar.
Marinade for three days !
Never use water, it rots beef !
Pete. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Typical Basic marinade construction - Oil - Acid (vinegar) - Herbs/Spices. Use of salt to aid osmosis. Less oil quicker marination.
Cheers
Olive oil, Rosemary/Thyme, Garlic cloves (skin on but crushed), Sea Salt, Peppercorns (lots of), and Wine vinegar.
Marinade for three days !
Never use water, it rots beef !
Pete. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Typical Basic marinade construction - Oil - Acid (vinegar) - Herbs/Spices. Use of salt to aid osmosis. Less oil quicker marination.
Cheers
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Never use water, it rots beef ! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't typically brine beef, but its an essential step to making pastrami. As long as the brine has a high enough salinity, and its at refrigerator temps, I highly doubt there will be enough microbial activity to rot the roast.
I don't typically brine beef, but its an essential step to making pastrami. As long as the brine has a high enough salinity, and its at refrigerator temps, I highly doubt there will be enough microbial activity to rot the roast.
Phil Hartcher
TVWBB All-Star
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pete Hannan:
Olive oil, Rosemary/Thyme, Garlic cloves (skin on but crushed), Sea Salt, Peppercorns (lots of), and Wine vinegar.
Marinade for three days !
Never use water, it rots beef !
Pete. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do they corn Beef without using water?
Olive oil, Rosemary/Thyme, Garlic cloves (skin on but crushed), Sea Salt, Peppercorns (lots of), and Wine vinegar.
Marinade for three days !
Never use water, it rots beef !
Pete. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do they corn Beef without using water?
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How do they corn Beef without using water? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
with corn cobs, of course!
with corn cobs, of course!
Shawn W
TVWBB Emerald Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...I don't think the horseradish came through at all which really suprised me considering how strong it is. I wonder if it would have been just as good sprinkling some salt,pepper,garlic on it and calling it a day. It's hard to get anything but incredible brisket if you cook it long enough... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You could try making a thick sauce/paste (hold back on the liquids) of your horseradish and other spices ingrediants. Brush it on the brisket an hour before you foil it.
That way it will get some cook time but not so long it looses all flavor.
You could try making a thick sauce/paste (hold back on the liquids) of your horseradish and other spices ingrediants. Brush it on the brisket an hour before you foil it.
That way it will get some cook time but not so long it looses all flavor.
Phil Hartcher
TVWBB All-Star
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How do they corn Beef without using water? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
with corn cobs, of course!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a corny reply! I needed that.
Phil
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How do they corn Beef without using water? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
with corn cobs, of course!
What a corny reply! I needed that.
Phil