I didn't want to hijack Kevin's thread on high heat brisket, but Bryan's note got me thinking about the source of the meat. Sure, we purchase it from a local butcher, a grocery store, Costco, or Wally World. But in the example of the cryo wrapped brisket, none of those establishments had anything to do with the meat; they just resell it. The question is where did the brisket come from and does that matter? I'm speaking of quality only; if you want to do business with a specific business that's a different matter. How does one know where the meat comes from? I bought a no roll from a grocery store yesterday. For all I know they could be supplied by the same guys that supply WalMart. If the brisket is cryo wrapped, it's come from some processor somewhere. I suppose I could ask the guy behind the counter what their source is....but that probably wouldn't mean much to me. The meat is either good or it's not. How do I know the no roll I bought is of good quality? How do I know that the upscale grocer I bought this from isn't buying from the same source Wally World uses? And if they do, why spend more at 'upscale grocer' (unless your anti-wally world for other reasons)? What are your thoughts on this?
Source of meat...
- Thread starter Paul K
- Start date
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Your questions are apt. One of the big guns in the meat/poultry biz is Tyson. Tyson secured this position, especially, when they bough IBP several years ago; they've been the poultry big gun for quite a while. Walmart/Sam's was IBP's largest customer at that time (I was hauling meat then) and I assume that that hasn't changed much. Walmart quite likely buys from other vendors as well. They are notorious for not buying from vendors who do not accede to their demands, however, so there might be one or more out there that they do not buy from. The big gun for beef is JBS SA, the multi-national Brazilian beef processor who, if all deals go through, will be the world's largest. They signed deals to acquire Smithfield's beef operations (the fifth-largest), and National Beef (the fourth-largest). Cargill is a big player and there are others as well.
Beef, unlike poultry, is not a vertically integrated industry. Because of this, processing plants/packinghouses, collectively or individually, can and do process for various customers and can tailor to a customer's desires or needs. In other words, though Tyson or Cargill or Colorado Boxed Beef might sell to several retail chains--or to in-between middlemen who in turn sell to butchers or restaurants--it does not automatically (or necessarily) mean that they all get the 'same' meat. The labels might be the same, all the meat might come out of the same house (or not), but the meat can still be different in terms of grade, cut, even cattle breed, ranch source, etc.
It can be worth asking grocers--especially upscale ones--where their meat comes from and how they determine what they are buying, i.e., whether there is criteria the company uses to determine vendors.
Beef, unlike poultry, is not a vertically integrated industry. Because of this, processing plants/packinghouses, collectively or individually, can and do process for various customers and can tailor to a customer's desires or needs. In other words, though Tyson or Cargill or Colorado Boxed Beef might sell to several retail chains--or to in-between middlemen who in turn sell to butchers or restaurants--it does not automatically (or necessarily) mean that they all get the 'same' meat. The labels might be the same, all the meat might come out of the same house (or not), but the meat can still be different in terms of grade, cut, even cattle breed, ranch source, etc.
It can be worth asking grocers--especially upscale ones--where their meat comes from and how they determine what they are buying, i.e., whether there is criteria the company uses to determine vendors.
Alan D
TVWBB Super Fan
Well, I know that I can get the best meat in my area at Whole Foods, but it is also the highest priced. But I take much of it for granted, just as you must. The meat at Whole Foods has a better appearance to me in most cases, they also seem to take better care of the meat. These are things you pay for, as you will the quality of the meat.
The problem is that you can't tell what is in the meat.
This is akin to buying enhanced vs. non-enhanced meat. You know it is enhanced because of what is on the label, but how would you tell otherwise?
Even if you buy a piece of meat that says it's organic, all natural, no additives, how would you know?
How would you tell if the grower fed the cattle with steroids?
Yep, the only real way to know for certain is to raise the cattle yourself.
The problem is that you can't tell what is in the meat.
This is akin to buying enhanced vs. non-enhanced meat. You know it is enhanced because of what is on the label, but how would you tell otherwise?
Even if you buy a piece of meat that says it's organic, all natural, no additives, how would you know?
How would you tell if the grower fed the cattle with steroids?
Yep, the only real way to know for certain is to raise the cattle yourself.
Kevin and Alan; thanks for the responses. If I may combine them...
I understand what you state about processors can and do tailor to a customer's desires or needs. That makes sense especially the bigger the customer is. Which is precisely the reason WalMart has the leverage they yield. Kevin, I heard about JBS SA last week and that Brazil is the largest exporter of beef in the world. Alan, I agree; the meat I've seen at WF is great looking, but I do not purchase their meat due to the price, wish I could. I'll get to know the men behind the meat counter a little better and find out more about their sources and criteria. Thanks all.
Paul
I understand what you state about processors can and do tailor to a customer's desires or needs. That makes sense especially the bigger the customer is. Which is precisely the reason WalMart has the leverage they yield. Kevin, I heard about JBS SA last week and that Brazil is the largest exporter of beef in the world. Alan, I agree; the meat I've seen at WF is great looking, but I do not purchase their meat due to the price, wish I could. I'll get to know the men behind the meat counter a little better and find out more about their sources and criteria. Thanks all.
Paul
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Yes, to really know, I suppose, you have to raise them yourself, but the certification for organic production is tight and strict; fines for misrepresentaton are hefty. It is not in the producer's interest to fudge what they are offering. Though were they to be successful in this they might be able to get more money for a more cheaply produced product, were they to be discovered their business, finances, and persons would be severely jeopardized. This gives me confidence.
Were a Whole Foods near me I would buy from them all the time. I buy from them whencooking on the road whenever possible, unless a market in the area has similar standards. What goes into the animals and how they are raised is very important to me. I'll pay for that. I also buy from family farms with organic and compassionate husbandry practices.
Alan D
TVWBB Super Fan
Kevin,
I agree that the certification for organic products is tight. The one aspect which I sometimes wonder about is that greed is strong, and what would prevent a seller from putting non-organic meat in the organic tray? Some we take for granted, since the meat doesn't have any tags on it.
I'm with you on the Whole Foods meat, although I don't buy all of my meat there as I really can't afford to. Ironically I don't buy much stuff at Whole Foods, but meat is one of the things I do buy when I can. I will pay for that type of quality myself. The fish is without a doubt the freshest and best quality around as well. My wife is very picky about fish, as she is Japanese, and they are very picky when it comes to fish. Same with meat, she would rather I get a smaller portion of good quality meat, than a larger portion of less quality. My problem is that I typically want a larger portion of good quality meat!
I agree that the certification for organic products is tight. The one aspect which I sometimes wonder about is that greed is strong, and what would prevent a seller from putting non-organic meat in the organic tray? Some we take for granted, since the meat doesn't have any tags on it.
I'm with you on the Whole Foods meat, although I don't buy all of my meat there as I really can't afford to. Ironically I don't buy much stuff at Whole Foods, but meat is one of the things I do buy when I can. I will pay for that type of quality myself. The fish is without a doubt the freshest and best quality around as well. My wife is very picky about fish, as she is Japanese, and they are very picky when it comes to fish. Same with meat, she would rather I get a smaller portion of good quality meat, than a larger portion of less quality. My problem is that I typically want a larger portion of good quality meat!
D. L. Whitehead
TVWBB Super Fan
For those in the Detroit area, I buy almost all of my beef at Royal Oak Farmers Market from a rep. from TMZ Farms...all natural pasture raised beef....expensive, but the flavor is exceptional...Kevin first gave me the lead on this. Alternatively, Holiday Market in Royal Oak also has excellent natural beef, also pricy but as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for. If I do buy from a big box, it is Costco.
Alan D
TVWBB Super Fan
D.L.,
Nobody is without fault, but without knowing the full story, it's hard to take any writeup like that at face value. Whole Foods could have bought the meat from another seller, who got it from Nebraska. If anything it makes one wonder why there have been so much linked back to Nebraska?
If you have never shopped at a Whole Foods, do yourself a favor and do so some day, even if you don't buy anything. Look closely at the meat, the fish, and the produce.
I think their policy that Kevin linked to says a lot, although the article discredits it that you linked to...
It's not your average supermarket. That won't stop me from shopping there...However, all of our mileage varies.
Nobody is without fault, but without knowing the full story, it's hard to take any writeup like that at face value. Whole Foods could have bought the meat from another seller, who got it from Nebraska. If anything it makes one wonder why there have been so much linked back to Nebraska?
If you have never shopped at a Whole Foods, do yourself a favor and do so some day, even if you don't buy anything. Look closely at the meat, the fish, and the produce.
I think their policy that Kevin linked to says a lot, although the article discredits it that you linked to...
It's not your average supermarket. That won't stop me from shopping there...However, all of our mileage varies.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
I know Bill. I got an e from him when the E. coli story was breaking. As much as I respect him and his firm, nothing leads me to believe that WF would knowingly continue selling pathogen-tainted product after they were made aware of it. That is sooo not in their interest, especially with the posibility of Bill picking up the story. (No one with a clue in any part of the food service industry does not know Marler-Clark and their record. They win, they win often, and they win a lot of money for their clients. and the liability chain rarely stops with the packer.)
D. L. Whitehead
TVWBB Super Fan
Kevin's post really gets us back to the crux of Paul's questions. How do you determine the quality of meat you purchase?
Apparently, even Whole Foods didn't know about the quality (or source) of the meat they were selling. This press release indicates that the beef in question came from one supplier that was owned by some other company that used Nebraska Beef, Ltd. for processing. This press release indicates that Nebraska Beef, Ltd. was not approved by Whole Foods.
We like to think that, when we pay for quality, we get what we pay for. That may be true, in general, but is no guarantee.
I, typically, purchase my meat from a couple local neighborhood grocery store meat departments--have for years. I pretty much know what to expect from them. I am knowledgeable enough about meat to be able make some visual assessment of their meat products. I am very rarely disappointed in the quality of meat I purchase.
One can learn about the quality characteristics of meat. There is a wealth of information available on the world wide web. There are textbooks written about meat quality and college courses in meat science too. How much you know depends upon the effort you put into learning about meat quality.
As to organic, all natural, no additives, pasture fed, and no added hormones? That is pretty much an issue of trust. As I see the Dow is down 682 right now, we know that money and trust don't always work out favorably...
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K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Quite right. But I have to go with something. Perhaps I'll turn out wrong, but I'd rather go with comapanies (and family farms) that make a big deal out of their commitment to quality based on the same criteria that are important to me. They have more to lose if they seriously screw up.
D. L. Whitehead
TVWBB Super Fan
Originally posted by Alan D:
D.L.,
Nobody is without fault, but without knowing the full story, it's hard to take any writeup like that at face value. Whole Foods could have bought the meat from another seller, who got it from Nebraska. If anything it makes one wonder why there have been so much linked back to Nebraska?
If you have never shopped at a Whole Foods, do yourself a favor and do so some day, even if you don't buy anything. Look closely at the meat, the fish, and the produce.
I think their policy that Kevin linked to says a lot, although the article discredits it that you linked to...
It's not your average supermarket. That won't stop me from shopping there...However, all of our mileage varies.
Alan,
Ah, Nebraska! There is a lot of confusion surrounding beef from Nebraska. Nebraska Beef, Ltd., aka Nebraska Beef, is not to be confused with Nebraska beef (without the capitalized B in beef). Nebraska Beef, Ltd. is a privately held meat packing plant. Nebraska beef? In 2007, Nebraska was second nationally in cattle on feed with 2,700.000 head and second nationally in commercial cattle slaughter with 7,067,700 head slaughtered. Only about 38 percent of the beef slaughtered in Nebraska were fed in the Nebraska. I have no idea where Nebraska Beef, Ltd. gets their beef. For all I know, it could possibly be from Nicaragua.
Nebraska Governor Dave Heineman said, "I think people can distinguish between a company called Nebraska Beef and the Nebraska beef that is a very safe and high quality product that we export all over America and all over the world." He might have been overly optimistic.
I've never even seen a Whole Foods store. The only Whole Foods in Nebraska is over forty miles away in Omaha. I don't travel to Omaha often. But, I would quite likely shop at Whole Foods, at least occasionally, if a store was conveniently located and the merchandise was within my budget. From much of what I've read, they are a fine grocery.
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Alan D
TVWBB Super Fan
I am with you on this Kevin, and I have found no finer store than Whole Foods, although I don't shop there only, I would if I was richer!
D.L.,
So your saying that even if someone does buy meat from Nebraska Beef, Ltd, they really can't be sure where the beef came from anyway? This sounds very similar to *some* of the beef that Whole Foods sells, which is exactly what I mentioned above about not knowing the entire story.
If there is any assurance for me, I will be more selective at Whole Foods and only buy the beef that states on the tag that it was purchased locally in Petaluma and fed with natural grains, which much of it does ironically.
You say that, "I am knowledgeable enough about meat to be able make some visual assessment of their meat products.". I feel the same way.
As I suggested, when you are in Omaha you should do a "visual assessment" of the meat counter at Whole Foods and report back to us here on TVWBB if you would chance getting meat from them.
Because we do need to take some of this at face value, I specifically pointed out above that the only way for anyone to know exactly what is in the beef is to raise the cattle yourself, that goes for folks that live next door to the ranch, IMO.
For all I know, the tag at Whole Foods that states that particular meat was raised locally in Petaluma could be entirely wrong and come from Nicaragua, but just as Kevin points out, most of us have to go with something at some point, and Whole Foods does give me more comfort in the way they run their store, not only with the meat, but the fish and most certainly the produce as well.
With that said, I'll probably smoke up a pork shoulder-butt I got from Smart & Final this weekend, it says it doesn't have any additives in it...but I have to take that at face value also...not like Farmer John hasn't had problems themselves in the past...
FWIW, I buy most of my Briskets from Wal-Mart as many of you know. Almost all of them are Excel packers. The one I cooked today was an Excel packer that was clearly marked so on the cryo-vac pack. Same with the flats I get at BJ's, almost always marked Excel on the cryo. Butts from BJ's these days are IBP though, and don't like them as much as the Excel Butts I used to get from BJ's.