Sauerkraut with dill


 
Thanks B, I don't happen to agree with all your input but I respect your experience.

Specifically:

Salt OR acid level + lack of oxygen is required to neutralize botulism (see this microbiology article by Dr. Russell Hazen. It would seem of paramount importance that the cabbage is completely submersed. Note: this document also supports a less than 3TBSP/5lbs cabbage IS safe argument if I calc'ed the volumes right.

Secondly, you simply can't add that much water without impacting the end product. Not saying it's bad or wrong, but really is a different approach. If I was intending to stick to the 3T/5lb USDA rule I would certainly try this because all the kraut juice would get dumped and rinsed away for being so salty.

My mom told me she added water once and would never do it again, it was the worst she ever made. Now, the reason water was added was that they got what they paid for with that cheap cabbage, it was extremely dry and for all the pounding they couldn't get much juice out of it. So the cabbage was a huge factor in her assessment, but was water a factor and how much of a factor gives me pause. Your post actually makes me feel better about the idea of adding water.

If you are getting softening I would suggest lowering the ambient temps and/or use of uniodized salt if you are using that. We have never stirred and I think the only uniformity issues come from some cabbage shreds getting beat up more than others. Honestly, I can only see an increased risk of contamination by stirring base on OUR experience stirring is not necessary at all.

Homemade is SOOOO much different than store bought, agree 100% and can realte to converting kraut haters.

Thanks for posting, I really should try a bucket with water and fresh cabbage, no stomping to see what I think.
 
Yeah it's all fun stuff, but a couple of things here don't apply.

"It would seem of paramount importance that the cabbage is completely submersed."

>> Of course, that's why you add water if necessary. At no time is the cabbage exposed to any air. I still don't see what the pounding does for the process. Eliminating air? There isn't that much space anyway, and the little extra liquid easily fills it up.

"Secondly, you simply can't add that much water without impacting the end product."

>>I didn't specify how much water one would be adding. In some cases it is very little. In the case of having less than ideal cabbage, you have no choice, there is simply not enough moisture no matter how much you mash it.

Other than perhaps diluting some of the flavoring agents in the cabbage, I don't see where getting your water from the cabbage or the tap makes much difference - at least we haven't tasted it.

RE Softening, I was only referring to the effect of time. All kraut eventually gets soft, it can't be helped. Ours is plenty crunchy, sour, and salty at the beginning. And yes, we used non iodized kosher salt for everything we cook.

Thanks for the salt guidelines, though. We do need to take ours down a notch - most recipes do call for too much. I made a batch once that you could have tanned leather in. Not tasty.

Keep experimenting, and so will we!
 
The problem I see with no pounding is the small amount of kraut you would end up with. I can get over 80lbs of cabbage in my 10 gal crock with pounding. I can't see getting more than 20lb. in there without pounding.
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>> Of course, that's why you add water if necessary. At no time is the cabbage exposed to any air. I still don't see what the pounding does for the process. Eliminating air? There isn't that much space anyway, and the little extra liquid easily fills it up.

I'm confused then, you said 'fill up 7/8 of the way ... check the level the next day and add more if below the cabbage'. Isn't the top then exposed to air? ... perhaps you meant 'make sure it is covered with water the next day'?



>>I didn't specify how much water one would be adding. In some cases it is very little. In the case of having less than ideal cabbage, you have no choice, there is simply not enough moisture no matter how much you mash it.

Well, having not tried it your way, we fit say 215lbs of cabbage into 25imp gallons worth of crock (20 + 5) by pounding. You said 'pounding unnecessary', I took that to mean you loosly pile and add water, which would also mean you add quite a lot of water. But, you are saying you don't often use much water so you must pack it somewhat ... how many pounds do you do into how many gallons of container and how much water do you end up adding (roughly)?



>>Other than perhaps diluting some of the flavoring agents in the cabbage, I don't see where getting your water from the cabbage or the tap makes much difference - at least we haven't tasted it.

I'll make a suggestion, bruising the cabbage by pounding extracts more than just water, some of the sugars are released as well and more readily available to feed the lactobactilli from the get go. I have no proof of that though.



>>RE Softening, I was only referring to the effect of time. All kraut eventually gets soft, it can't be helped. Ours is plenty crunchy, sour, and salty at the beginning. And yes, we used non iodized kosher salt for everything we cook.

This document might give you some ideas about softness. Mom said the couple years she tried doing it in the house instead of outside where it was cooler were the years where she noticed soft kraut. Glad to hear you aren't using iodized .... it seems to be one of those 'truths that ain't' ... I've read a bit of stuff that says you CAN use it but you have a higher risk of your batch going bad, spoiling due to the wrong bacteria taking over, and it can make the juice cloudy. Sidenote: Actually I've read a couple places that the anti-caking agent in Kosher salt can make cloudy kraut juice as well ... I've not tried it, we just use coarse pickling salt.



>>Thanks for the salt guidelines, though. We do need to take ours down a notch - most recipes do call for too much. I made a batch once that you could have tanned leather in. Not tasty.

I have been reading a lot on kraut lately. I've been disturbed about the 3T/5lb USDA guideline, but also don't want to keep doing my low salt way if it's dangerous, or worse recommend it to others. What a shame to flush all that delicious juice and wash away so much health benefit.
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Seriously, a study linked unpasteurized kraut to cancer prevention in lab animals.

If I understand it rightly and did my mass calculations right, into 215lbs (97522g .. estimate of 250lbs - waste), and 1035g of coarse pickling salt. 1035/(97522 + 1035) = 1.0% final salt concentration (the USDA recommendation is 57g salt/(2268g cabbage + 57) = 2.45%). If you read the abstract of this study they used a concentration of 0.5%, so only half as much as even I use. The low salt was judged to have the best taste (and obviously no botulism toxins
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). *I didn't plan the amount, we just taste the juice ... add salt until 'slightly salty', but I have a mind to start measuring and using consistent amounts ... knowing what I do now.

I'd bet $100 the guideline is meant to accomodate people trying to do it in 85ºF ambient temp with iodized salt and cabbage loaded with dirt. Make the salt strong enough so that even if it spoils and all the lactobactilli are killed off at least you won't get botulism (1t of botulism toxins is 'sposed to be strong enough to kill 100,000 people ?!?).

I've got a few emails out to USDA, the doctor from the link in my last post and others ... if I get anything back that helps clarify salt levels I'll be sure to update the thread.

Another thing I'd like to experiment with is different additives. We use baby dill, I've heard of garlic, juniper berries, carrots ... all sorts of additives being thrown in. Do you folks do use anything else in yours?
 
That's a very good point, which brings up another option.

I continually ADD cabbage to my "ongoing" batches, so eventually it builds up to whatever amount you want to babysit.

This is only if you want to generate large amounts over a long period of time. You do have to want to babysit kraut for a long time period (months rather than a few weeks) if you do it this way. I take a break once in awhile, or else you generate more kraut than you know what to do with.

The cool part is you rarely need to add additional water or salt, just keep adding new cabbage to the "veteran" brine. If the overall liguid level drops, you just add a little more light brine. It's perpetual kraut.
 
One thing I'll recommend is using food grade plastic containers rather than worrying about using an actual crock (though we just inherited a cool one!) when you start out.

There are a lot of cool new plastic containers in the household section of department and grocery stores that hold a few gallons rather than the giant crock method. There are some make to hold leftovers and such.

We use some containers (with a plastic snap-on lid) that are slightly larger than a dinner plate in diameter and about seven inches in depth. They hold about two shredded cabbage heads, which is a good amount to experiment with.

While shopping, just grab a cheap plastic dinner plate from the dinnerware section, and take it over to the containers, using it to determine what the best fit is. It should fit inside without wedging tight, but not have a huge gap around the edges either. Buy the plate and the container and you've got an instant kraut kit.
 
I like the constant fresh kraut idea, really do. Me and mom have talked about it, but it seems different than this 'one time and can approach' this thread is about, could you post a thread for it with details about starting and maintaining? I have several questions too.
 
Finished fermenting my first ever batch. Used this recipe and I am amazed by the unique flavor of the dill with the kraut. It took just over 4 weeks for a perfectly balanced product with a good crunch. I personally have never tasted better kraut and can't wait to use it tonight with some fresh garlic kielbasa from the polish meat market. My wife and mother-in-law also agree on the taste difference between this and store-bought. I will never buy again.

By the way, I raw-packed and canned but don't know how much that will preserve the flavor.
 
Perpetual Fresh Sauerkraut

I don't have new "recipe" per se, so I don't know if this technique is worthy of a new post, so here's a quick rundown.

1. I use the basic recipe from this website:
http://kitchenproject.com/german/sauerkraut/
(Notice how they add water where necessary, with no issues.)
2. I have at most, 2-4 heads of cabbage involved in any one container (sometimes I have two containers going, sometimes one - but we're talking 2-3 gallon food storage containers, not a giant crock.)
3. I let the first batch ferment for 3-4 weeks as necessary, keeping it in a cool place (60 degrees or less, 50 is preferable if you've got a cool basement area like we do.)
4. After the first batch is ready to eat (based on your preference for flavor.) I scoop out a few one quart containers worth and stick them in the refrigerator.
5. Upon removal of those two quarts of fresh, I add one head of chopped cabbage to the original container along with enough water to cover if necessary. One teaspoon of salt can go in after add new cabbage, BUT taste the brine first. If it's strong enough already, don't add any salt. It's a subjective taste thing at this point, since the necessary bacteria will already be there in mass quantity.
6. Mix the container, but I don't mean stir. It's more of a "flip" to send the new cabbage underneath the older stuff.
7. The whole thing will remain acidic enough to last into eternity, but eventually the kraut on the bottom will get mushy if you don't rotate it frequently enough. If you rotate it regularly, you'll get more fresh kraut than you may know what to do with!
8. I do throw out a "mother" batch from time to time, as one can only eat and give away so much kraut, and cabbage and salt are cheap. You can strain out the brine though, and use it to start a new batch, like sourdough starter.
9. This is home made food chemistry, so you play with this at your own risk, I neither recommend or guarantee the results, but we've never gotten sick and seem even healthier when we're on the kraut wagon.
 
One last note, sometimes the plastic containers do get "used up", or kind of funky from extended use. They seem to eventually impart odd flavors to the kraut, or vice versa, the kraut embeds its flavor into the container, so I don't use a container more than a year or two before replacing it. They are only a few dollars, and you can transfer the old ones to yard and garden duty - they're great for picking lots of vegetables in one fell swoop.
 
I received a response from the doctor I mentioned, I won't quote him directly since I haven't asked permission, but I'll paraphrase his response: 'the 3T/5lbs is a failsafe level for people who don't know the dangers of home fermenting'.<end paraphrase> Better to ruin a batch with too much salt (if it even starts) than to get botulism poisoning because somebody doesn't know better than to clean dirt off before throwing it in the fermenting container.

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B.Debo: that's great to hear, I'm so glad it turned out for you and you like it. What was your salt profile?

The flavor will stay well with hot packing ... what you lose from pastuerizing fresh is the bacteria 'that promotes healthy flora through the entire digestive tract'. There is a small hit to crunch factor from the process as well. In our experience taste and texture is good for a year or so then starts to go downhill. Most of the info I've come across says processing in water bath is unnecessary.


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P: Ah, now I understand what you were getting at with 'rotate the kraut', you have a perpetual batch going. That makes sense, it's not at all necessary if you just make it then can it.

What I'm thinking about this perpetual batch: in all the reading I've been doing there is a stop point ... the acid level becomes so high it kills the lactobactili ... just like wine or beer making or grain alcohol. It can only get so high before it kills the yeast, higher proofs must be distilled. Every time cabbage is added I'd dump 1/2 - 3/4 of the brine to bring the ph level back into safe level for the fresh lactobactilli on the new cabbage to renew the fermentation and ensure the sugars of the new cabbage are consumed.

Thanks for your input P, I'm looking forward to trying it out!
 
Yeah, that's a good idea on dumping some of the previous brine to improve the flavor, if nothing else. But of course I would still add some salt and water with the new kraut.

This is really nothing new, the old "pickle barrel" in general stores worked the same way. They would just dump new cucumbers (and other veggies - which you can also do with batches of kraut, by the way - apple slices, or garlic, or peppers are good to experiment with separately) into a barrel of brine that had been there for ages. That's why you see them fish around in movies and such, they're looking for a certain color/texture pickle to get a good one (I like to use a fork as kind of a "test probe"), and not just grab a fresh cuke.

The same brine would be kept all winter at least, and sometimes for years. Not necessarily the healthiest approach, but again, if you use the salt they did, and keep the liquid level high enough, you basically have a "killing broth!", nothing from the animal world, microscopic or not, can survive in it except for the very specialized bacteria that aren't harmful to us.

If you like all of this tedium, but want even more variables and frustration, try sourdough bread - I used to do it, but have put my starters into long term storage at the moment.
 
Originally posted by Shawn W:
I received a response from the doctor I mentioned, I won't quote him directly since I haven't asked permission, but I'll paraphrase his response: 'the 3T/5lbs is a failsafe level for people who don't know the dangers of home fermenting'.<end paraphrase> Better to ruin a batch with too much salt (if it even starts) than to get botulism poisoning because somebody doesn't know better than to clean dirt off before throwing it in the fermenting container.

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B.Debo: that's great to hear, I'm so glad it turned out for you and you like it. What was your salt profile?

The flavor will stay well with hot packing ... what you lose from pastuerizing fresh is the bacteria 'that promotes healthy flora through the entire digestive tract'. There is a small hit to crunch factor from the process as well. In our experience taste and texture is good for a year or so then starts to go downhill. Most of the info I've come across says processing in water bath is unnecessary.


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Being my first time, I used a 3 tbs to five pounds shredded ratio but I may lower next time. I did not feel it tasted too salty though.

We used a quart yesterday and the crunch was still there and flavor was great. Thanks again, it has been a big hit.
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Wow, those are really nice, and I do like my gadgets and new toys...

They're still a massive quantity though, I don't know how I'd use it all.

On another side note, these are touted to prevent the "top mold" that you're supposed to skim off.

I have never actually seen ANY mold in my small plastic containers. I think the airtight lids prevent that.

So smaller batches and no mold for the win!
 
First batch of 08 canned up and another batch started today. A guy I work with goes by the cabbage farm on the way home. Sat was sup to be the last day for it, but they have a bunch left and are going to stay open 1 more week. Price down to $0.35 a head. I had him get me 20 heads that set me back $7.00.
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I filled the 6 gal crock back up today while canning the first batch. That was a busy day, and I'm spent.
 
Cool, good luck.

For those freezing their kraut, rather than canning it, I just thawed a bunch of items from earlier this year and have found that the solid plastic food containers (the square ones from ziplock) have given me better/crisper kraut upon thawing than freezer bags. The bagged frozen kraut was much soggier. I have no idea why.

We're also in the midst of testing the new vacuum bags from Reynolds and Ziploc. Fun stuff.
 
OK. I've read through everthing here and I think I got a handle on the process. I only have two questions. Anyone know where I can get a crock, stomper and mason jars here in PA? I hate paying shipping charges. How long does the kraut keep in the jars? I'm planning on making some for my buddies Octoberfest party. I figure a few batches and I should have the process down.
 
Hi Gerry,

We just tried a big batch in a traditional crock that we got from relatives, and it was much harder to do, with worse results. The crock itself weighs a ton, and is unecessary with modern plastics. (They didn't have them back then, obviously)

With a sealed plastic container, you don't even the "mold" that you hear about. I've never seen it at all! So no "daily cleaning" is necessary.

Just find a food safe container with a snap on lid that looks like it will hold a head or two of shredded cabbage, and go to it. Any department/grocery store will have SOMETHING for a few bucks. They'll have mason jars too, but unless you're making a huge amount, and/or storing it for months, then again, plastic containers (I like the round ones from Ziploc with the screw-on tops) will hold it in the fridge for those amounts you want to eat now. Leave the rest in the big plastic container as long as you like. This stuff doesn't spoil ever, it just gets mushy and/or too tart/salty. You'll either finish it off, or throw it out long before it can become bad food.

Next, the stomping REALLY isn't necessary, I don't how to emphasize it more to newcomers so they don't get scared off. Just like the new "no-knead" bread recipe out there, sauerkraut can be made just by letting time do its thing with no labor necessary at all. The natural process just needs water and salt, that's it. Add water as necesssary after the first day, and leave it alone.

All I do it turn the kraut every few days when I remember to, and taste it once in awhile. It's done when it tastes good to you.

Couldn't be simpler.
 
Oh, and unless you ARE planning to can the kraut in Mason Jars, plan on making your batch for the Octoberfest about 3-4 weeks ahead of time, or start a batch now, and see how long it takes to get to the taste/texture you like.

I actually have batches get a good taste in as little as two weeks, but they are still too crunchy, so I let them soften for a couple weeks more. I still like it somewhat crunchy, but not "coleslaw" crunchy! And I don't like mushy kraut, so don't make it TOO far ahead, or you'll have cabbage soup.

It's really easier than it sounds, and is amazing when it happens.
 
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