Rubs and Flavor
- Thread starter tjkoko
- Start date
Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
Yes. Yes. Yes.
It does not take a pro to taste the difference. Can I tell you what's in a rub? No, not everything but I can pick out components and taste a difference.
Can you make excellent bbq without a rub? Yes.
The differences are primarily nuances of flavor.
Also, color, texture and perhaps more importantly--aroma. Smell is a key to flavor.
It does not take a pro to taste the difference. Can I tell you what's in a rub? No, not everything but I can pick out components and taste a difference.
Can you make excellent bbq without a rub? Yes.
The differences are primarily nuances of flavor.
Also, color, texture and perhaps more importantly--aroma. Smell is a key to flavor.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Absolutely. But I don't make rubs based on paprika and I don't make rubs with significant quantities of sugar. Nor do I use supermarket spices/herbs that are of inferior quality and/or have sat on the shelves for ages.
But I disagree with Steve: Excellent barbecue without a rub? Nope.
Kevin
On edit: Though I think it should go without saying, I will anyway: It's my opinion that there is no such thing as rubless barbecue that I'd rate as excellent because, to me, rub is required. Doesn't have to be complex, doesn't have to be exotic, doesn't need to be heavily applied. But it does need to be there and it does need to be made with quality ingredients, simple or not. Lack of rub or lack of a well made rub is probably my number one complaint about commercial barbecue.
But I disagree with Steve: Excellent barbecue without a rub? Nope.
Kevin
On edit: Though I think it should go without saying, I will anyway: It's my opinion that there is no such thing as rubless barbecue that I'd rate as excellent because, to me, rub is required. Doesn't have to be complex, doesn't have to be exotic, doesn't need to be heavily applied. But it does need to be there and it does need to be made with quality ingredients, simple or not. Lack of rub or lack of a well made rub is probably my number one complaint about commercial barbecue.
Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
Kevin, I think you can take good meat, good smoke and salt and pepper (not a rub in my book) and make some fine bbq. I would agree that a good rub adds much tho....
David Lohrentz
TVWBB Pro
There is a huge difference between rubs. For BBQ, I am not a fan of rubs where one ingredient is many times louder than all others. For example, I like black pepper in moderation, but the Mr. Brown recipe with 25% black pepper doesn't work for me. For grilling, I'll often do simpler rubs where one or two ingredients take the lead, but for Q, I like a many layered rub typically with 10 or more ingredients.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Ditto, David. It seems like such a missed opportunity not to complement and contrast within the rub and between it and the meat and smoke. Then the meat can stand alone--though I like to serve sauce on the side.
I know there are many that totally agree with you, Steve, but I'm not one of them (not on this issue
). Good meat and good smoke with salt and pepper are, to me, the foundation--and I want something built on it. Without, the flavors flatten rather quickly, imo, as there is little to support or highlight them, and I'm bored in a couple bites. I need depth of I'm just not happy.
I know there are many that totally agree with you, Steve, but I'm not one of them (not on this issue
Kevin, I see the three chilies you listed are available at Penzey's, some whole, some ground.
I have a Zassenhaus pepper mill. I'm surely no where near the level some of you are with creating rubs, but I'd like to get the ingredients and put one together if I could get a recipe. Thanks.
I have a Zassenhaus pepper mill. I'm surely no where near the level some of you are with creating rubs, but I'd like to get the ingredients and put one together if I could get a recipe. Thanks.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Absolutely. But I don't make rubs based on paprika and I don't make rubs with significant quantities of sugar. Nor do I use supermarket spices/herbs that are of inferior quality and/or have sat on the shelves for ages.
But I disagree with Steve: Excellent barbecue without a rub? Nope.
Kevin
On edit: Though I think it should go without saying, I will anyway: It's my opinion that there is no such thing as rubless barbecue that I'd rate as excellent because, to me, rub is required. Doesn't have to be complex, doesn't have to be exotic, doesn't need to be heavily applied. But it does need to be there and it does need to be made with quality ingredients, simple or not. Lack of rub or lack of a well made rub is probably my number one complaint about commercial barbecue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kevin, I disagree about the rub. The best pulled pork BBQ in the country, IMO, has been produced for years in the Carolinas without rub.
Absolutely. But I don't make rubs based on paprika and I don't make rubs with significant quantities of sugar. Nor do I use supermarket spices/herbs that are of inferior quality and/or have sat on the shelves for ages.
But I disagree with Steve: Excellent barbecue without a rub? Nope.
Kevin
On edit: Though I think it should go without saying, I will anyway: It's my opinion that there is no such thing as rubless barbecue that I'd rate as excellent because, to me, rub is required. Doesn't have to be complex, doesn't have to be exotic, doesn't need to be heavily applied. But it does need to be there and it does need to be made with quality ingredients, simple or not. Lack of rub or lack of a well made rub is probably my number one complaint about commercial barbecue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kevin, I disagree about the rub. The best pulled pork BBQ in the country, IMO, has been produced for years in the Carolinas without rub.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
And I'm certain many would agree with you. Though I appreciate the style of NC Q (I've eaten at dozens of Q joints in NC), I find it--taken by itself--marginally passable. To me, it lacks character, and certainly depth, and absolutely requires sauce. I go to the NC places for the character of the place, not the meat. I have the same problem with the much-lauded central Texas places and their brisket. Very moist, very tender, and wholly lacking in interest--again, to me. (At Kreutz they don't even have a sauce--just the horrid Texas Pete's hot sauce (from NC no less!)--and no sides. In both cases neither the smoke nor the salt (and pepper) do much to elevate the meat from bland and 'excellent' is not an adjective that springs to mind.
So--now that I've alienated the NC and Texas Q devotees--Al:
A Zassenhaus won't grind chilies effectively. For that you'll need an electric coffee grinder--the blade type. I'll give you suggestions for doing it with purchased already-ground chilies. (If you decide you're on a rub development mission I'd recommend a blade grinder. Not only can you grind chilies in it (which are best pan-toasted first to dry them further and really boost their flavors) but it's good for briefly grinding the mixed rub (in many cases) to even out the texture of the coarser spices, herbs and sugar.)
This will make more than you need but is easier to write this way as some of the smaller amounts are rather small. Feel free to halve the recipe, if you wish, although if you make the full batch and decide you want to alter the remainder it is quite easy to do on the fly.
Chile blend:
3 T ancho, 2 T guajillo, 1 T hot New Mexico (red)
or
3 T ancho, 2 T guajillo, 1 T cascabel, 1 t cayenne
or
2 T aji amarillo, 2 T ancho, 2 T guajillo
(all these chiles are available in whole or ground form from here; these are just a few of the many possibilities, both in chile type and in proportional quantities)
1/4 c turbinado sugar
1/3 c granulated onion
1/4 c granulated garlic
3 T thyme (grind well between your fingers)
1 t rubbed sage
.5 t powdered bay leaf
1.5 t ground white pepper
1.5 t ground black pepper
1.5 t ground allspice
1 t ground coriander
.5 t ground cinnamon
T=tablespoon t=teaspoon c=cup
Salt: Place your ribs in front of you. Imagine that they are cooked already, but with no salt. Sprinkle salt on the ribs (both sides) in the amount you would had they been served to you this way. Allow them to sit for several minutes to allow the salt to draw moisture to the surface; apply the rub over the salt.
Do your best to make sure that the rub is evenly blended. Application quantity depends on you. For spares I like a nice even application that's slightly heavy; for backs, because they're thinner, less. For butt (that will be pulled) I apply on the heavy side, wait several minutes for the rub to moisten, then apply more. This is not a rub I'd use for beef or poultry without alterations.
Of course, amounts can be scaled to taste. Cayenne can be added if more heat is desired.
Eye-balling the amount I'd say this rub comes in at ~16% sugar as opposed to the many of 30-75%(!).
See what you think.
So--now that I've alienated the NC and Texas Q devotees--Al:
A Zassenhaus won't grind chilies effectively. For that you'll need an electric coffee grinder--the blade type. I'll give you suggestions for doing it with purchased already-ground chilies. (If you decide you're on a rub development mission I'd recommend a blade grinder. Not only can you grind chilies in it (which are best pan-toasted first to dry them further and really boost their flavors) but it's good for briefly grinding the mixed rub (in many cases) to even out the texture of the coarser spices, herbs and sugar.)
This will make more than you need but is easier to write this way as some of the smaller amounts are rather small. Feel free to halve the recipe, if you wish, although if you make the full batch and decide you want to alter the remainder it is quite easy to do on the fly.
Chile blend:
3 T ancho, 2 T guajillo, 1 T hot New Mexico (red)
or
3 T ancho, 2 T guajillo, 1 T cascabel, 1 t cayenne
or
2 T aji amarillo, 2 T ancho, 2 T guajillo
(all these chiles are available in whole or ground form from here; these are just a few of the many possibilities, both in chile type and in proportional quantities)
1/4 c turbinado sugar
1/3 c granulated onion
1/4 c granulated garlic
3 T thyme (grind well between your fingers)
1 t rubbed sage
.5 t powdered bay leaf
1.5 t ground white pepper
1.5 t ground black pepper
1.5 t ground allspice
1 t ground coriander
.5 t ground cinnamon
T=tablespoon t=teaspoon c=cup
Salt: Place your ribs in front of you. Imagine that they are cooked already, but with no salt. Sprinkle salt on the ribs (both sides) in the amount you would had they been served to you this way. Allow them to sit for several minutes to allow the salt to draw moisture to the surface; apply the rub over the salt.
Do your best to make sure that the rub is evenly blended. Application quantity depends on you. For spares I like a nice even application that's slightly heavy; for backs, because they're thinner, less. For butt (that will be pulled) I apply on the heavy side, wait several minutes for the rub to moisten, then apply more. This is not a rub I'd use for beef or poultry without alterations.
Of course, amounts can be scaled to taste. Cayenne can be added if more heat is desired.
Eye-balling the amount I'd say this rub comes in at ~16% sugar as opposed to the many of 30-75%(!).
See what you think.
Kruger:
Regarding grinding chilis, although I haven't tried using one, consider a molcajete(sp?) aka Mexican mortar and pestle. They're huge, inexpensive, made of lava rock, and can be purchased at most any Mexican supermercado. And the market itself might even offer a Mexican style butcher shop: costas de Reyes mmmm mm.
Regarding grinding chilis, although I haven't tried using one, consider a molcajete(sp?) aka Mexican mortar and pestle. They're huge, inexpensive, made of lava rock, and can be purchased at most any Mexican supermercado. And the market itself might even offer a Mexican style butcher shop: costas de Reyes mmmm mm.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
I have a molcajete, two actually, a large and a small one. They're not great for grinding chilies to a powder in a short time. A small one will work but it takes elbow grease and either one needs to grind quite a while or grind (till tired) and sift out the coarser bits.
Ceylon cinnamon could work here but I think the fuller rounder flavor of cassia cinnamon goes better with chilies and with sage. Not much is used, proportionally, so that it shouldn't stand out. For lemony notes (also that shouldn't stand out) I chose the ground coriander. I quite agree that Ceylon is nice with beef. I like it with ginger and a touch of ground clove. You should post a rub mix (or two) tj!
Ceylon cinnamon could work here but I think the fuller rounder flavor of cassia cinnamon goes better with chilies and with sage. Not much is used, proportionally, so that it shouldn't stand out. For lemony notes (also that shouldn't stand out) I chose the ground coriander. I quite agree that Ceylon is nice with beef. I like it with ginger and a touch of ground clove. You should post a rub mix (or two) tj!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
So--now that I've alienated the NC and Texas Q devotees--Al:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't speak for others but it didn't alienate me. There's probably over a billion recipes on the web and I'm sure there's someone out there that considers every one of them good.
Variety is a very nice spice.
I enjoy reading your posts. They're very educational. While I may not agree about NC BBQ, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
So--now that I've alienated the NC and Texas Q devotees--Al:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't speak for others but it didn't alienate me. There's probably over a billion recipes on the web and I'm sure there's someone out there that considers every one of them good.
Variety is a very nice spice.
I enjoy reading your posts. They're very educational. While I may not agree about NC BBQ, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
Neil, I second your thoughts.
Kevin, I always appreciate and learn from these exchanges. Thanks.
Kevin, I always appreciate and learn from these exchanges. Thanks.
Luke and Bethany
TVWBB Fan
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neil R.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
So--now that I've alienated the NC and Texas Q devotees--Al:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't speak for others but it didn't alienate me. There's probably over a billion recipes on the web and I'm sure there's someone out there that considers every one of them good.
Variety is a very nice spice.
I enjoy reading your posts. They're very educational. While I may not agree about NC BBQ, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like the quote I saw in some BBQ cookbook somewhere that said, "Good BBQ is where you find it," meaning, good BBQ is everywhere and so is bad BBQ. It depends on the individual's taste as to what good and bad are. We've smoked butts with nothing at all, and with salt and pepper on them. Have yet to try rubs, but with only salt and pepper they're amazing. I'd be open to trying a rub though - regardless, the taste of the meat with just salt and pepper on our home smoker is better than any BBQ I've had in restaurants. Well, maybe with the exception of a couple places around here.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
So--now that I've alienated the NC and Texas Q devotees--Al:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't speak for others but it didn't alienate me. There's probably over a billion recipes on the web and I'm sure there's someone out there that considers every one of them good.
Variety is a very nice spice.
I enjoy reading your posts. They're very educational. While I may not agree about NC BBQ, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like the quote I saw in some BBQ cookbook somewhere that said, "Good BBQ is where you find it," meaning, good BBQ is everywhere and so is bad BBQ. It depends on the individual's taste as to what good and bad are. We've smoked butts with nothing at all, and with salt and pepper on them. Have yet to try rubs, but with only salt and pepper they're amazing. I'd be open to trying a rub though - regardless, the taste of the meat with just salt and pepper on our home smoker is better than any BBQ I've had in restaurants. Well, maybe with the exception of a couple places around here.
I was at Chris Lilly’s class the end of July in S. Cal. which was eight hours (Sat evening and Sun morning) of hands on training geared towards competitors.
My notes on rubs;
Start with three main ingredients as a base;
1. Salt (onion, garlic, sea, etc.)
2. Sugar (brown, etc.)
3. Pepper (red, white, and black)
And then add transitions such as:
1. Paprika and/or
2. chile powder
Next add one or more signature ingredients(cumin, coriander, oregano, garlic, onion powders, etc.)
Beef; less sugar more garlic and salt
Pork: more coriander and/or cumin
Overall, Chris felt that 80% of the BBQ process is getting to know how to cook our meats properly on whatever cooker/smoker that you use and 20% is about rubs, sauces, and smoke woods.
John
My notes on rubs;
Start with three main ingredients as a base;
1. Salt (onion, garlic, sea, etc.)
2. Sugar (brown, etc.)
3. Pepper (red, white, and black)
And then add transitions such as:
1. Paprika and/or
2. chile powder
Next add one or more signature ingredients(cumin, coriander, oregano, garlic, onion powders, etc.)
Beef; less sugar more garlic and salt
Pork: more coriander and/or cumin
Overall, Chris felt that 80% of the BBQ process is getting to know how to cook our meats properly on whatever cooker/smoker that you use and 20% is about rubs, sauces, and smoke woods.
John