Results of Testing quality of turkey skin (High-Temperature cook)


 
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Rita Y

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I thought I'd do a test run on a high-temp turkey cook to see if I could crisp up the skin somewhat.

I used a 12.87-pound fresh turkey and brined it for 8 hours using the salt proportions and timing guide from Cook's Illustrated guide to brining poultry (Nov. 2001) and some other seasoning ingredients. I sprinkled it under and on top of the skin with a salt-free BRITU rub and refrigerated it uncovered overnight, until mid-afternoon the next day.

I smoked the turkey vertically, using a dry water pan. The temps ranged from 340 to 360 on a probe through the lid vent.

I removed the turkey when it read 164 degrees in the breast, about 3 hours in the smoker./.. pretty quick in my opinion.

The turkey was good, but the skin still didn't approach any degree of crispness, although it was a nice mahogany brown. It was just short of rubbery, but still not worth eating for those of us who love skin cracklin's.

At this point, I think I'll go back to water in the pan and a longer, slower cook.

Rita
 
I wonder if the brine is killing the texture of the skin?

In 30 years or so of cooking turkeys on a Weber, I've never had "rubbery" skin. If anything, I've had it come out too crispy on occasion, back before I learned to control it with cheesecloth.

Eight hours in a saline solution is going to basically 100% salt-cure the outer layer of skin. So it might well be that you end up with more of a "rind" on the turkey (liek the rind on a piece of salt pork or a ham) rather than skin that could crisp up?

I don't know. In the same 30 years, I've never salt-cured a turkey with brine. That's kind of a new-fangled thing and I don't really understand the logic behind intentionally filling your bird up with salt water...particularly the way they breed 'em to be moist and juicy these days anyway. Just seems to me that it's confusing two completely different processes: salt-curing and high-heat roasting. Maybe it's just me.
 
Rita,

Did you air-dry the brined turkey uncovered in the refrigerator overnight like Cook's Illustrated recommended in the Nov-Dec 2001 article? As stated in the article, the brining process not only adds moisture to the meat, but to the skin as well. Air drying helps remove that moisture from the skin so it can get crispy.

I used their brining and air drying process on an oven-roasted turkey last weekend and got really crispy skin. I'm hoping to try it the next time I smoke a turkey.

Regards,
Chris
 
Webb...I'm a big fan of brining and all the meats I've brined have been tender, juicy, and flavorful. The only problem is the skin of SMOKED birds. Grilled and oven-roasted come out great.

When you say Weber, are you smoking them on the WSM or a grill?

I've been reading about your cheesecloth method in past posts with great interest and that's on my list of things to try.

Chris....yes, the turkey was dried on a rack in the fridge overnight, about 19 hours. It didn't feel particularly dry when I removed it from the refrigerator. I thought about taking it from the fridge and putting it in front of a fan for an hour before smoking but didn't get around to it. I wonder if wrapping the turkey in a towel for the first 2 hours in the refrigerator would blot out a little more moisture.....

As I mentioned, the skin wasn't exactly rubbery, but not crisp either. I've never had a problem with the skin when I did the turkeys in the oven. Very strange!
Rita
 
Rita
I believe I remember Webb saying that he used a Weber Kettle and the condition he is talking about would apply. Using a WSM crisp
skin is not going to be achieved but tender is achievable. With a kettle the coals are close enough to the bird to give you the conditions Webb is describing, with a WSM the cheesecloth will help you control the color.
If you were to remove the waterpan at the end of the cook and with close attention you could crisp up the skin.
Jim
 
I wonder if you pricked the skin slightly with a fork and then put the turkey under the fan to dry and then in the frig uncovered to dry. Then after 2-21/2 hours in the WSM put the turkey in the oven at 350 to crisp the skin up.

Not sure if it would work and worth all that trouble but I think the skin would come out better.
 
Thanks, Jim,
Glad to see you're back. You've been missed.

Now why didn't I think of that? Makes perfect sense to remove the pan for a more direct heat. Now I'm ready to try it again.

Rita
 
Ooops, Jeff, your message must have come in while I was writing the last one. Didn't mean to overlook you!

Actually, I was thinking of crisping it in the oven, but it was occupied. I think I'm becoming a purist and wanted to exhaust all possibilities with the WSM first.

Pricking the skin is another idea I hadn't thought of. Maybe I'll try that on half the bird next time. Thanks for the tip.
Rita
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Minion:
[qb]Rita
I believe I remember Webb saying that he used a Weber Kettle and the condition he is talking about would apply. Using a WSM crisp
skin is not going to be achieved but tender is achievable. [/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that may very well be the case. Crispy skin requires high, dry roasting heat at some point during the process. For absolute best browning in an indoor oven, chefs will start a turkey out at 450 to 475 degrees and then back the temps down to 350 for the remainder of the time.

These are exactly the conditions you get in a Kettle grill. When the bird goes on with full fuel going like gangbusters, the temperature in the dome is probably close to 500 degrees. As the fire dies back, the temps drop down in the 325 - 350 range.

With no water, there's no reason that the basic configuration of the WSM couldn't do the same thing -- it's purely a temperature issue. I just don't know if you can get the temps high enough when the bird first goes on. I would certainly build as big a fire as I could, get it really roaring, then put the bird on and not make any efforts to close the vents and get the temps under control for the first 30 minutes to an hour. In fact, I would be surprised if you want to close the vents at all roasting a turkey on the WSM, unless you are fighting high wind conditions.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that all of the common temperature techniques (through the lid or through the side) tend to over-estimate the actual temps in the center of the grate, perhaps by a signficant margin in the early going when the fire is burning pretty well. A measured 350 degrees could actually be down in the low 300 degrees range. I think you'd really like to see measured temps in the 375 to 400 degree range for as long as they will stay there.

If you can't get the temps high enough, then the solution would be as you suggest: towards the end of the cooking time, pull the water pan out completely to put some direct heat on the bird. Rotate the bird every 15 minutes as necessary to keep it from burning and to crisp the skin evenly.

From what I've read of the food science in "Cookwise", the browning/crisping should occur very rapidly if done at the end of the cooking because so much sugar and protein will have concentrated in the outer layers of the food.
 
Webb
Your right about the temps for crisping bit I believe if you try to do at the beginning of the cook you will experience some other problems. The bird will blacken much more and the meat will be drier. By waiting till the end you can control the other factor easier.
Rita
Thank you for the welcome back, spent 9 days in the Cascade Mountains hunting elk, was a great time. Got some cooking in on the Bullet, chicken breasts, pork tenderloin and a ham.
Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Minion:
[qb]Your right about the temps for crisping bit I believe if you try to do at the beginning of the cook you will experience some other problems. The bird will blacken much more and the meat will be drier. By waiting till the end you can control the other factor easier.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shirley Corriher has an interesting section on just that topic in her book, "Cookwise". She prefers increasing the temp and browning at the end of the cooking because of the concentrated sugars and proteins at the surface of the meat. However, high heat at at the beginning is the "traditional" approach and both ways seem to work.

As a practical matter, at least when cooking on a Weber kettle, it's easier to get the high heat at the beginning when the fire is roaring than it is at the end when the fire has died down. It just follows the natural temperature curve of a charcoal fueled fire.

The butter-moistened cheesecloth is my tool of choice for controlling the degree of browning and preventing blackened turkey.

I can't really relate to the "dry turkey" issue because I've just never found it to be a problem at all -- except in the rare cases where I've just grossly overcooked the bird. To the contrary, I've generally found turkeys roasted on the kettle grill to be moist and extremely juicy. That may be, in part, because I cooked stuffed turkeys, but I think it has more to do with the way turkeys are bred these days. I also cook only fresh turkeys rather than frozen, which probably contributes.
 
Webb
I agree with a kettle at the beginning of the cook browning would be easier than on a WSM because trying to lower temps after there already high is a problem.
I notice that dry turkey is easier to achieve with offsets because of the large amount of dry air that is moving thru the pit.
I think I'd like to check out Cookwise, sounds like an interesting read.
Rita
My idea of roughing it anymore means room service is closed or I'm out of propane in the motorhome.
Jim
 
Ah, a kindred spirit!

I think all of you would enjoy Shirley's book CookWise. She makes science fun and gives good examples as well. I took a 3-day (all day, as in about 10 hours a day) class in Food Science from her several years ago and it was absolutely wonderful. So intense that my head was spinning. She never stopped -- I've never seen someone teach and demonstrate so much information in such a short time so entertainingly.
Rita
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Minion:
[qb]
I notice that dry turkey is easier to achieve with offsets because of the large amount of dry air that is moving thru the pit.

I think I'd like to check out Cookwise, sounds like an interesting read.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can believe that about offsets. I may be just a "panty-waist", but I'm not sure that a large offet is really a particularly good choice for an average joe's patio cooker. Very inefficient with fuel for cooking small quantities of food because of the gigantic air flow. By comparison, a Weber of any ilk has very small vents and is moving a fraction of the air through the cooker.

"Cookwise" had been on my list for a long-time. I'd looked at it in the store, but didn't feel like popping for $35. One day my wife came home from one of her Saturday shopping sortees to Building 19 -- a local "junk" store that sells close-outs. She said, I found you a cookbook that looked interesting. It was "Cookwise" for $5.95.

I don't think it's much of a cookbook as far as recipes go (I mean...the recipes are fine and all, but there's nothing I don't already have in a dozen other books), but some of the background discussions on the way things cook is pretty interesting. The discussion of Maillard Reactions that cause food to brown is particularly useful -- in my opinion, that is really at the heart of good cversus mediocre cooking.

She also has some interesting discussion about low-temperature (200 to 250 degrees) roasting.

Overall, I'd say get it out of the library, or find a close-out, or buy a used copy.
 
Well, the point of the book is really the food science, with simple recipes to illustrate the applications. Some of the recipes are really good...try the biscuits, although they take a little practice (no rolling!). Also good is the section on the thickening temperatures of eggs and why they should be heated slowly for custards.

I've seen the book marked down occasionally too. In my opinion, it's worth the full price, but finding it at a discount is icing on the cake!
 
I have two Klose offsets, one is a small unit that I started on years ago. Offsets are labor intensive and don't let you sleep on the long cooks but IMHO there hard to beat when cooking brisket. I have found ways to make a WSM or a Treager do a mighty fine job. The larger offset is now used for whole hog or my partner uses it for some of his commercial work.
The average backyard Q'r is better off with a WSM and a beginner will find that they can get great results right away, where with an offset the learning curve is much greater.
Jim
 
Rita,

Have you solved the crispy skin mystery? I am planning on cooking one on the WSM soon and I like crispy skin too. Thinking of finishing in the oven at the end of the cook.
 
This post is really interesting to me. I've done two turkeys on the WSM and while they were both tasty, neither had the crisp skin I so dearly love. But I refuse to give up!

I'm hoping to get some good smoking time in this weekend. Sadly, my last cook (Saturday Nov. 3rd) was interrupted by a family crisis. I'm anxious to get back to normal!

Kelly
 
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