reheating prime rib with foodsaver


 
G

Greg M.

TVWBB Fan
My father-in-law mentioned that he saw a program on chef's grilling meat until it reached the desired "doneness", flash freezing it and then vacuum packaging it. He said a chef on the show said you could put the bag in boiling water and it wouldn't cook further but would warm it up. The chef said it didn't really matter how long the meat was in the water. It then went from bag to plate.

I had never heard of it and frankly, I doubted it wouldn't cook the meat further. Luckily, I enjoyed some prime rib at Morton's in Indy this past weekend. The thing must have weighed two pounds so I brought the leftovers home. Basically I had about a 2-inch thick, filet sized piece of meat from the "eye".

The next evening I took the meat and vacuumed it into a foodsaver bag. As it was from the center of the roast, it started out as being pink all over (I prefer rare). As soon as I dropped it in the outside started turning greyish brown. I waited ten minutes, pulled it out and dropped it onto a hot pan for 1 minute on each side to develop a little of a sear.

I am happy to report that it turned out unbelievable. I have tried every method I could think of to reheat prime rib, or any other meat for that matter, and have only succeeded in cooking it further. Granted, the outside did cook a little bit, but an 1/8 or so into the meat it was as pink as it was originally served. While I don't know if a cooked steak would retain its exterior texture with this method, I am really anxious to try it. If that works, I'll probably start messing around with frozen cooked steaks.

So to end this long post, has anyone else heard of this or tried it? I know many people reheat pulled pork this way, but didn't recall anything on meat cooked to rare, med. rare, etc. being reheated this way.
 
It worked because you didn't leave it in the water too long. You can get good results with this method by doing what you did but you have to keep an eye on the timing. If you were to leave the bag in the water, and you were to leave the burner going under the pot, your original assumption would prove correct: the meat would cook further although it might not appear to be--at least for a while.

It is possible your father-in-law misunderstood what he heard the chef say. It is also possible that the chef misspoke. The method of which he spoke is called sous vide. It is being used in many high-end restaurants and in several food service companies that provide finished meals for various industries. In sous vide, food is cooked under vacuum in a circulating water bath at a constant particular temperature or, in the case of meats (and other items where one wants the product exterior to be different--caramelized, crisp, colored, etc.), the food is cooked in a water bath first then finished over direct heat, or seared/colored/crisped first, vacuum-packed, then cooked in the bath. For steaks and similar items cooked to a fairly low internal temp the cooking is pretty much completed first then the food is vac-packed. So long as the water bath does not exceed the desired interior finish temp of the food, the food will not cook further and can be held this way for a long time (one often hears 'indefinitely' and though that seems to be the case for some foods, others will undergo changes that may or may not be desireable).

In the case of cooked foods that have been vac'd and frozen, the water bath temp can start significantly higher (boiling, e.g.) than the desired interior finish temp but then either the water temp must be reduced or the time in the bath must be shortened.

Though there are many who use sous vide and many who are experimenting with it (I am) there is a lot of misinformation out there. I have heard a few chefs (who probably have done little if anything with it) say things about it that are clearly untrue.
 
Ihanks Kevin. For cooked, vac'd and frozen steaks would you then suggest controlling the reheat by the time in the boiling water or by reducing the temperature of the water over a set amount of time?

I want to set up some tests to figure out if this is repeatable with steaks. My wife eats filets and I stick to ny strips. I buy them whole from Costco and carve them at home. Then I vac and freeze them. If it wouldn't affect the outcome of the product significantly, I would like to grill them before I freeze them (especially during winter). Then its just a matter of reheating in the boiling water.

I was leaning towards carving some cheap roasts into a size similar to steaks and testing the reheat by varying the time in the boiling water. It would also give me an idea of how it affects the exterior.

If anyone has any suggestions regarding this I sure would appreciate it.
 
Originally posted by Greg M.:
For cooked, vac'd and frozen steaks would you then suggest controlling the reheat by the time in the boiling water or by reducing the temperature of the water over a set amount of time?
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The latter. To minimize the chance of cooking further you pretty much want the water to be no higher than the desired serve temp, no higher than the desired internal temp. You can start it higher, allowing the frozen meat to drag the temp down, but if the intent is to reheat without further cooking it is important not to let the water temp get away from you.

There are a few things to keep in mind. Since you won't actually be cooking the meat in this case you have a bit more leeway but for best results package your steaks either individually or package them flat (not stacked upon each other) when freezing. Be generous with the packaging so that you can be sure of a good vacuum and a good seal.

I'm experimenting in another area at the moment but because of your post earlier I decided to cut the brisket I pulled from the cooker this morning and vac-pack it with the intention of a water re-heat. I cut the flat into 2.5-inch-wide sections and froze them. For dinner tonight I put one in a pot with lukewarm water to cover and set it over a medium-low gas flame. (Important note: This piece and vac package was just large enough to wedge down into the pot and stay there. Package(s) must stay submerged throughout the process (another reason why getting a good vacuum when you package is important); use a weight if necessary.) I left the pot uncovered so that the water would not get too hot. I am used to the look of water (steam, bubble size, lack of bubbles, etc.) at various temperatures so I did not temp the water (relying on visual cues only) but I would suggest temping. Water is warmer at the bottom of the pot so it is important to have a sense of what is going on temp-wise and to stir at least occasionally, especially if the temp creeps up too high. My intention was to keep the water at serving temp with a little leeway so I was looking for 145, give or take 5.

I did not watch the clock nor note actual start and pull times (it was about an hour) but I was confident I maintained a suitable temp so I wasn't too worried. The brisket came out of the package very close to how it went in. It was moist, with good bark, and there was no leaked juices of any kind in the package. It sliced just like it did before I packed it and there was no discernable difference in texture.

Were I to do this again or experiment in this area, I would note times and be more on the temp situation which, if trying this with cooked steaks, I would suggest.

There are various food-safety issues (which I'm not going to get into this minute) relating to cooking sous vide. For what you're looking at doing I would suggest this common approach: Cook your steaks then immediately put them on cooling racks over a sheet pan and put them into the fridge. As soon as you can get them into bags and vac'd do so (this means only a few minutes in the fridge) then immediately submerge the bags in ice water and leave them there till completely cold, then freeze. This will minimize potential bacterial issues and help to preserve the finish and flavor.

I'd be interested in your results if you try this.
 
Thanks again. I'm an engineer by trade, so the desire to experiment and document is second nature. I'll take your advice let the water temp drop after adding the meat. My initial concern with that method, which you hinted at, was food-safety related. I do a bit of homebrewing and homebrewers are always thinking bacteria. Your advice on getting it from hot to cold quickly makes me feel a lot better about it.

I'll report my results in a few weeks. Hopefully I can get enough precision to do this on a regular basis. Grilled meat just tastes better to me, but I'm tired of grilling in the cold. I tried a grill pan on my gas range and it doesn't even come close. The best I've done is searing and then roasting in the oven.

I guess I need to start talking to the wife about a new flash freezer.
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Just FYI since you got me going on this, Greg: I did it again with about a third of tri-tip remaining from the evening before. I had grilled it and this piece that was leftover from dinner I just wrapped in plastic, didn't freeze. But to reheat I vac'd it and put it in a pot of tepid water over very low heat (it helps if you have a simmer burner; if not, a flame-tamer of some sort is worth acquiring). The water only hit a high of 140 briefly. Mostly I was able to keep it in the low 130s. I left it in there an hour just to see. When I opened the package it smelled as it did the night before--grilled, with the aroma of charred rub ingredients. The side of the piece that had once been in the interior of the roast had lost its pink color but only for 1/8-inch. The exterior had great texture--not precisely the texture of the roast when I pulled it from the grill of course, but the same as when I packaged it. When I sliced it all the slices within had maintained their color and the meat was juicy and tasty.

An important thing I've learned from my work in other areas of sous vide is to be generous with the vac bag material. This helps you get the best vacuum.
 
So, Kevin, at what temperature should the water be for reheating pulled pork? Around 195, 200*F?

This subject has gotten better and better and now seems to have become the reheating method of choice.

By the way, how do you pronounce sous vide? soos V(LONG I)D, soos VEEDAY?

Rita
 
Hi rita...

If I'm understanding the conversation correctly, I'm not sure with pulled pork it matters as much, since pork is cooked fully and well done, then brought down to eating temp. if you are just reheating pulled pork, I'd throw it in boiling water, then keep it on a low simmer. The water temp will stabilize around 150-ish. After 15-20 minutes, the pork (depending on how large the package), is at it's prime. But if it goes over that temp, it isn't a big deal since it was initially cooked to 195.

I think what Kevin and Greg are talking about is about being able to cook and freeze something (like steak, which is cooked only to rare/medium rare, etc.), then being able to reheat while maintaining the quality of the just-cooked steak. Pretty cool, really since in the past, you really couldn't store cooked steak and hope for it to be worth eating after it was reheated. That's why they are talking about keeping the temp of the reheat water low so the steak doesn't cook beyone medium rare or whatever the desired temp...

does that make sense? sorry for rambling...
 
Adam, you are understanding the conversation correctly and, Rita, I agree with Adam on the PP re-heat issue. However, note that excessive heat will cause further cooking. Though this might not be noticed with the rather moist meat of pulled pork (the fact that it's pulled or chopped helps too) if the package is not allowed to stay at a boil (say) for too long, high heat can squeeze the juice right out of something like brisket. But since a suitable serving temp is 140-150 water temps in that area are probably better for reheating items like fully-cooked beef or lamb, fowl, pork meant to be sliced, etc.

The term sous vide (also written as sous-vide) is pronounced SOO (rhymes with 'do' as in 'Do you want...' VEED.
 
This has been an interesting thread which I have read, but not participated in 'till now. My interest lies in rehearing PP in FS bags. I have experienced the overcooking in reheating in boiling water. From some previous posts, I've gathered that so long as the water temp doesn't exceed the finish temp of the PP, which would be around 195, you don't have a problem. I guess the water temp can't exceed its boiling point, so perhaps an issue is how long you keep it in the boiling water ? I'm a little confused about the temp of the water at the various stages of its boil. So, lately, to avoid the problem of overcooking, I've been nuking at a low setting in relatively small quanities. Seems to work ok for me and I've avoided the overcooking issue. However, I'm still interested in getting the right formula for reheating in water in the FS bags - big bubbles, little bubbles, rolling, ... whatever.

Paul
 
Whether or not a high water temp will have a deleterious effect on the pork is a matter of time and condition of the pork when it was vac'd. By time I mean how long the pork is subject to the higher temps and by 'condition' I mean the level of moisture and rendered fat in the pork plus the size of the shreds or chunks. (I add thin vinegar-based finishing sauce (that also has an oil component) to the pork as I pull/chop it. This would likely give me a bit more leeway than if I froze the pork un-sauced.)

If you were to cook pork butt sous vide from the beginning you might select 195 as your finish temp and set your controls accordingly. (This wouldn't be something you did with just a pot of water alone. A butt cooked from the beginning sous vide would likely take upwards of 24 hours to cook, quite possibly over 30.) The same rendering process would occur in the sous vide butt as occurs when cooking it conventionally except that there is no evaporative moisture loss. However, reheating cooked butt is a bit different whether it was cooked sous vide or cooked conventionally. A sous vide-cooked butt would contain more moisture than a conventionally cooked butt (giving you more leeway) but both, given enough time, might suffer with reheat temps above 160. 'Given enough time' is operative and 'suffer' is subjective: When the temps rise into the rendering zone you are, in essence, re-rendering the pork. What the final result will be will depend on how much moisture and fat the pork started with, the size of the pork pieces, and how long the pork is reheated at the higher temps. Whether or not the result is desirable is up to the individual taster.


If you've ever had an overcooked braise (like pot roast or braised butt) you'll get what I mean. As the meat went though its rendering phase during cooking the usual rendering occured. If it was served when just 'done', the meat was moist and flavorful. If it was allowed to cook at a higher heat than the optimal finish temp (as is done in conventional cooking) for too long the meat will dry out--even though it is being cooked in liquid--and taste like, well, dry meat in flavorful liquid instead of moist, flavorful meat in flavorful liquid. This is because the structure of the meat fibers change and lose the ability to hang on (as it were) to the moisture and rendered fat in the meat. This will occur if the meat is cooked at lower temps as well but it will take longer to happen. (If one was cooking the meat sous vide from the get-go it would take longer still--much longer. Being under vacuum has its advantages. Though the meats structure will undergo changes the moisture and fat have nowhere to go. One could probably extend the cook time quite a bit with no problem. But, just like with conventionally cooked roasts, once the meat is sliced, chopped or pulled its structure is altered again.)

[Please forgive the redundancies. I am writing stream-of-thought and am not a morning person. It's all I can do to type let alone self-edit.]

So--in my opinion, for best results when reheating PP, brisket chunks, turkey or chicken thighs cooked to a 180 internal and shredded, keep the water temp around 150. This gives you the most leeway time-wise and is a good serving temp. If you packaged the thighs whole you could go higher on the temps because you have more 'structure' but it is not necessary.

If the meat is frozen you can certainly start the water at a rolling boil because the meat will bring its temp down when added to the pot. If the package is small (read: packed on the thin side) enough, it is often sufficient to add it to a pot of water at a rolling boil, cover the pot, shut off the burner, and allow enough time for the package to thaw and heat. For larger packages, or several, Adam's suggestion of a low simmer (~185; small bubbles form and break right away), pot uncovered, is a good one if you don't need to hold them for a long period. Unfortunately, it's hard to specify a time because that so depends on package size/thickness--you have to pull a pack out, lay it on the counter and mash it with your fingers to feel the interios temp--but it's not like PP will go from heated well to over-rendered in an instant; there's leeway. If you need or wish to extend the time in the pot keep it uncovered, lower the heat as much as possible (use a flame-tamer or put a large heavy saute pan between your pot and the burner if your stove doesn't go very low) and let the water water stay steamy (no bubble formation), stirring every once in a while to even out the water's heat.

Using a large pot with a large surface area is helpful for keeping water temp low. Packaging PP (or similar product) in a thinner layer (like an inch or inch-and-a-half) rather than packing it thickly helps it reheat more evenly and is easier to see/feel when ready. Again, larger or thickly-packed packages can work fine--it depends on the moisture/fat content of the package, the meat's structure, how long it's in the water, and how discriminating you are when tasting.
 
Kevin

If you typed this in the morning and you're NOT a morning person, I can't imagine what you could do later in the day ! Thanks for all this valuable information.

Paul
 
You should have seen me trying to recall the spelling of the simplest words. I would have laughed at myself if the coffee had kicked in but, alas, even that was impossible!
 
I read the first couple of entries in this thread when it started and then sort of forgot about it...until tonight. For
Valentine's Day I grilled a whole venison tenderloin cut in 2 pieces. They turned out good but I was a little disappointed because we only needed one half for our dinner. I wrapped the uneaten one in foil and put it in the refrigerator. I was wondering how I was going to reheat it when I remembered this thread.

I didn't have time to reread the thread tonight so I decided to wing it. I shrinkwrapped it with a little bacon grease and stuck it in boiling water for about 10 minutes. It came out perfect and everyone agreed that tonight's was better than the one we had on V-day. Now that I read the remainder of this post it sounds like I did it wrong but I don't know how it could have been any better. The loin had perfect color, texture and moisture. Too bad I don't have any more tenerloins to try to do it the "right" way.

Thanks for all of the info.

Mark
 
Just wanted to say thanks for all the helpful info in this thread. I reheated brisket and pulled pork in foodsaver bags for a great July 4th meal - had a low simmer, put in 4 bags of bbq, stabilized at 150 degrees. Let them slowly come to temp while I prepped everything else and then served a crowd of 12 with perfectly hot and tender meat. Kevin, as usual, your insights are greatly appreciated.
 
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