Mythbusters - Low & Slow is Best.


 

JRPfeff

TVWBB Guru
We all know that the only way to cook barbecue is low and slow. But there have been several discussions recently advocating higher temperature cooking, for example - chuck - brisket - general hi-temp method. There has also been some agreement on use of the Piedmont Pan method, which removes the temperature surge safety net of the WSM's aqueous heat sink.

I had temperature control issues last night with my WSM, and ended up at around 300 for most of the night. My pork butts turned out great. I prefer hi-temp ribs & chicken, too.

Bottom line, I get great results smoking everything in the 275-350 temperature range. Is low & slow just a myth? What are the temperature limits for great barbecue?
 
Jim,
I ran my WSM out of water last night and burned a brisket. Guess I shouldn't have fallen asleep. I'm looking at buying the fixens for a Piedmont Pan now. Unfortunately I have no idea how hot my WSM got with no water, as I was sleeping, but it must have been bad to cook a brisket to a crisp. Guess I'll need to make soup out of it so it can at least be eaten.
 
Jim, Good question. I think it comes down to the particular cut of meat you're cooking. There was a good thread going that discussed the various grades of beef and touched on your question - http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1780069052/m...660089104#5660089104

I'm pretty sure that I read a thread where Kevin K wrote about how he would treat a prime brisket differently (temp wise) than a select or choice brisket because of the difference in the connective tissue and other physical properties; I just can't find it at the moment. If the fattier cuts like butts and briskets cook fine at higher temps, why not others? My last brisket was cooked the high temp method, on purpose, and it came out great.
 
Paul - I remember that statement by KK, too. Not that I ever believe anything Kruger ever writes.
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Perhaps it comes down to how we define low temp, versus how a griller defines low temp.

One thing I did find last night. After doing a high-temp brisket earlier, I did not lose any sleep about the 300 degree temperatures ruining my butts & beef clod. It didn't.

Jim
 
Good to hear no meat was ruined! I know producing good Q is an art but there is some science mixed in. The science side would speak to the structure of the meat being cooked, the temp and the time. When you adjust one of those 3, most likely it will affect the other 2. Evidently we can go with higher temps (270ish or higher as you did) and still properly render the fat on a brisket or butt. But there's obviously a limit because of physics; thermal dynamics? For example, you couldn't produce a butt in 3 hours at 550*. It looks like there's a zone where one can play with the 3 variables and produce good Q. We'll just have to keep pushing the envelope and strive to boldly go where no cook has gone before
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. And eating our research along the way
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Clark,

Thats too bad you ended up burning your brisket. If you have time, I highly recommend the Piedmont pan. No water to tend, you'll sleep better at night.

Jon
 
Maybe we can get the Mythbusters TV show to do a progam on Low n Slow vs. higher temps. Just as long as they don't try to feed the Q to their crash dummy.
 
Great quote, Jon.

Paul, you're spot-on. (Of course Jim's observations are apt too but since he doesn't believe anything I say...
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There are a number of factors that affect the cook, both physical and artistic (and many of the artistic choices have direct physical consequences or correlations). The structure of the meat (fat and connective tissue content which, as we know, is dramatically less now than it was a few decades ago), size (especially thickness), and cut. Temp and time are obviously factors and so are trim (was the meat purchased trimmed or did you trim it before cooking? if so, how much?), cooking environment (dry? waterpan? forced air from a Guru?), foiling (or not), and rub contents, especially sugars.
 
Kevin,

I see you're from Okeechobee. I believe I've seen some monster bass caught from Lake Okeechobee. Ever try smoking some striped bass or fresh water fish?

On a side note, I almost lost all my meat in my extra fridge in the garage today. Came back from from Sam's Club with some juicy NY Strips. After I saran wrapped them to put in the freezer I noticed things were starting to melt.

I found out the GFI circuit in the garage had been tripped. Don't know why? Everytime I went to turn it back on it would get tripped. Then I thought it was the compressor. I played around the back of the fridge to look for a fuse but nothing out of the ordinary.

I then took an extension cord and plugged it into the kitchen and it came back on. I came to the conclusion that since the fridge draws a lot of power when the compressor comes on it put a lot of load each time and the GFI became too touchy. I ran to Home Depot and found a new one and quickly ran home.

I'm kind of paranoid when it comes to messing with electricity. I did gt everything back to together. I was very careful but I got one small shock. I guess I should have turned the breaker off.

The fridge seems to be working now. I'm sure glad that I was able to save my precious meat. I guess if it was a bad compressor I would have had one giant smoke and invited the whole neighborhood.

Jon
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clark "Harbormaster" Hodgson:

I ran my WSM out of water last night and burned a brisket. Guess I shouldn't have fallen asleep. I'm looking at buying the fixens for a Piedmont Pan now. Unfortunately I have no idea how hot my WSM got with no water, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clark, I run my WSM without water all the time and with all the vents 100% open it will usually run right about 350 measured at the dome.
 
Jon,

I've smoked trout but nothing from the lake.

Your 'sensitivity' (shall we say) when it comes to electricity I share. When I was about 4 years old I shocked myself with a socket and have shied from it since. Years later I designed and operated lights for rock bands and then for theatrical productions. I always hired someone to do the actual electrical work and I stuck to the design. It took me a dozen years after those days to start messing with electricity myself! Even if I am absoultely certain no lines are charged a chill still runs through me when I change the breaker, hook up the ceiling fan--whatever it is I'm doing. (I'm more comfortable cooking.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jonny K:


I found out the GFI circuit in the garage had been tripped. Don't know why? Everytime I went to turn it back on it would get tripped. Then I thought it was the compressor. I played around the back of the fridge to look for a fuse but nothing out of the ordinary.

I then took an extension cord and plugged it into the kitchen and it came back on. I came to the conclusion that since the fridge draws a lot of power when the compressor comes on it put a lot of load each time and the GFI became too touchy. I ran to Home Depot and found a new one and quickly ran home.

I'm kind of paranoid when it comes to messing with electricity. I did gt everything back to together. I was very careful but I got one small shock. I guess I should have turned the breaker off.

The fridge seems to be working now. I'm sure glad that I was able to save my precious meat. I guess if it was a bad compressor I would have had one giant smoke and invited the whole neighborhood.

Jon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jon, Keep a careful eye on it. It might have been the GFI but also it could be that the compressor is starting to go south in the fridge. When they start to go they draw a huge amount of power/AMPS when turning on, starting up. Which line has more drawing from it, the fridge line or the kitchen line you plugged the extension cord into? I'd hate to see you lose all that meat. Better to be safe than sorry.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
... There are a number of factors that affect the cook, both physical and artistic (and many of the artistic choices have direct physical consequences or correlations). The structure of the meat (fat and connective tissue content which, as we know, is dramatically less now than it was a few decades ago), size (especially thickness), and cut. Temp and time are obviously factors and so are trim (was the meat purchased trimmed or did you trim it before cooking? if so, how much?), cooking environment (dry? waterpan? forced air from a Guru?), foiling (or not), and rub contents, especially sugars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kevin - I can't say that I disagree with you. Then again I can't say that I understand what your conclusion is either. Have you thought about a career as a politician after you sell your semi?

What I think you said is that there are multiple variables and they must all be considered in answering the question. A chart or speadsheet might be needed to determine the answer.

Or "I voted for the hi-temp method, before I voted against it."

My new theory is that for big cuts of meat, high temperatures do not negatively affect the meat up to the point of fat rendering and connective tissue breaking down. At that point temperatures should be reduced or the meat foiled. More research is required. Then I write my book.

Jim
 
Kevin,

I experienced some "trama" when I was a kid too. I got shocked really bad playing with a hair dryer. The stupid thing was I wanted to see what would happen if I pulled the plug out slightly then touch each prong with my thumb and index finger, low and behold I got a nasty surge of electricity I guess that's what curious/stupid 8 year old do.

Bryan,

I checked the fridge this morning and everything is kosher. The fridge is pretty new it's not even a year old. The garage circuit only has the fridge plugged into it, where as the kitchen circuit has a lot more load.

The funny thing is the GFI would go off only a few seconds after I plugged the fridge into it. That's why I suspect it became defective. The new one does not do that at all. Also, I notice the original GFI was made really cheap.

Does running a fridge in the garage living in a cold area like WI pose any problems? We did have some pretty cold weather the other week. I didn't have any issues last winter and it was pretty darn cold.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will definitely keep an eye on the precious meat.
 
Jim,

I didn't draw a conclusion.
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Yes, there are numerous variables that together affect outcome.

Low temps allows the meat's surface to dry rather slowly--especially in a cooker with a waterpan, but it is the case irrespective of this. Evaporative pressure is less but because there is evaporation the meat's surface stays cooler than one might expect and the meat is gently cooked. This method is offers a larger 'done' window usually. Think of a butt.

At high temps (375, 400 or more) the surface of the meat browns (caramelizes) and the evaporative pressure is significantly greater. There is significantly more moisture loss and the outside portions of the roast are more done than the inside (if pulled early--think of a tenderloin roast cooked to med-rare--or can become overdone and dry if the roast contains less fat/connective tissue--think of a large cut from the round cooked at high heat. The 'done' window is much narrower.

In conventional roasting, i.e., roasting in an oven, the usual cook temp is moderate--in between the low and the high, or about 350. Sometimes the cook is started at high heat to foster caramelization of the meat's exterior but this is a personal preference thing. The moderate temps during these cooks offer a compromise between high temp cooking and low and works well in many cases. There are personal--not mandatory--exceptions to this, like choosing to cook a tenderloin or rib roast at 200 after an initial sear so that the result is more evenly done, or choosing to roast a pork tenderloin at 500 to obtain significant browning but a short cook time (pulling the meat at ~135-140 internal so as not to overcook).

So, where might this leave us in terms of typical Q meats? Well, the first thing to remember is that in barbecue we are cooking the meat past conventional 'done' (in terms of internal temp) to 'done' meaning tender. Though low/slow is valid for all meats we barbecue I think that 'low/slow' needs a better definition in most cases. For conventional (read: supermarket) briskets, chucks, butts and spares I think a temp of ~275 grate is low/slow. Most butts can support lower temps than this (which can be handy if one requires a longer cook for scheduling (or sleep!) purposes), as can spares usually, but with briskets it's a crap shoot. Even though at the lower temps of 200-230 say, the cook is gentle and the evaporative pressure minimized, many briskets simply do not have the internal renderable fat and connective tissue to warrant temps this low--in my opinion--and suffer as a result.

Sidebar: At temps above 120, myosin begins to coagulate. As temps rise and coagulation continues, moisture is forced out from between the myosin molecules as they bond together. As temps pass 140 more proteins coagulate and more moisture is squeezed and the meat feels significantly firmer asa result. Soon, the collagen in the connective tissue starts to denature and the connective tissue shrinks. This shrinkage puts pressure on the moisture in the interior portions of the muscle cells that are surrounded by the shrinking connective tissue. As temps rise further the meat gets stiffer and dryer. Then, at temps ~160, collagen in the connective tissue starts to dissolve into gelatin. As cooking continues, the connective tissue that held the muscle fibers together softens substantially. Now the muscle fibers that the connective tissue held together when it was intact start to be able to be easily pushed apart. When this process is completed and the connective tissue is soft and gelatinous, we have what we know as 'fork tender'. Much moisture has been lost (due to being forced out by the denaturing of the proteins and evaporation) but some remains trapped. Moreover, it is the breaking down of the connective tissue into gelatin and the rendering of internal soft fat pockets that gives us the soft, meltingly tender mouthfeel of good barbecue.

Though all meats have connective tissue that hold the muscle fibers together internal fat levels vary. In some cuts--say a thick butt or relatively thin spares--there is enough renderable fat along with connective tissue that allows the cook a wider range of cook temp possibilities. For other cuts--say supermarket briskets and babybacks--there is relatively less and this narrows the range, imo. However gentle cooking at very low temps might be, I think that one opens the door to excessive moisture and mouthfeel loss in many cases, i.e., the cook time is too long for the amount of internal renderable fat and the longer cook time allows for increased evaporation of moisture being forced from between the protein molecules. This is where I think one needs to weigh several of the variables noted above to determine best cooking temp. I see significant differences in a standard supermarket brisket cooked at 210, say, and a Prime brisket cooked at the same temp, or a standard slab of ribs from the market and one from a fattier pastured pig. The hindquarter from the Duroc cross we raised was significantly fattier--and contained much more finely striated fat--than a supermarket fresh ham one normally gets. This allowed me to braise it very slowly (in mojo) till done, cool it, cut it into small, bite-sized pieces, then reheat it in reduced braising liquid for serving and not worry that it would end up dry--not something I could do as well with a supermarket fresh ham. Imo, I would have had to undercook a conventional fresh ham, then cool it and cut it, and reheat gently and very carefully so as not to allow it to dry out.

I think, again for conventional supermarket cuts, the upper 200s offer a good compromise in terms of cook speed--slow enough to offer rendering/tissue breakdown, fast enough to disallow excessive evaporative loss. And, again, the cuts with the most of both offer the cook a wider range of temp possibilities. Temps can be pushed higher, if one wishes, by the use of foil which offers both a heat shield and, if closed around the cut, braising possibilities. I do not care for butts that are high-heat cooked with foil but I do like brisket done this way. Both can be cooked successfully at ~275 grate without the use of foil during cooking but this is a personal preference thing. It should be noted that one needs to consider bark components, especially sugars, when determining cook temp and whether to foil. Sugars caramelize at 335+ and burn at 350+. Though evaporation at the surface will keep it cooler for a time there is a line; cross it and the bark burns. Either be very careful, cook at temps below 335 (I like ~310-325 for brisket if using foil even though I rarely use sugar in the rub), or plan on using foil as a shield.
 
I agree with Kevin . I've done butts at high temp and they seem to lack the flavor of the ones cooked low and slow. BUT, brisket cooked hot and fast with foiling is a different story. They turn out great every time. Not much bark but the moistness of the meat, tenderness, and taste are consistantly superb. Plus, you can smoke(cook) these puppies in about 4-5 hours.
 
I've been a lurker for a long time and have about 1 year of WSM cooks under my belt. Figured I'd register and start posting. This post caught my eye as I am experienced in the electrical side...

Jon, if I were you I would remove the GFCI receptacle and put in a standard three-prong receptacle. GFCI's should not be placed on refrigerators, as you can get a 'nuisance trip' which is where there is a slight imbalance between the hot and neutral wires. This happens from time to time regardless, but with the sensitivity of a GFCI, it can cause a trip.

It is also not code, anywhere, to have a GFCI installed in this application. Common garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected, but receptacles that are behind appliances, such as refrigerators, washers and dryers, are not required to have this protection.

If you have a dedicated circuit for the refrigerator, again not required but a good idea, you should have no problem running the fridge in any temp. The new energy efficient models don't pull that many amps.

Hope this helps !

Matt
 
Matt,

I bought a Levitron (sp?) GFI from Home Depot and so far no trips on the GFI. The fridge is working great. As you suggested, I did contemplate using a standard 3 prong outlet in the garage. The thing is the circuit is located about 4 to the right and about 3 feet about a garage water hose faucet and, the place came new with a GFI in place I believe code says wherever there is water a GFI is required.

The GFI is not behind the fridge, I have the fridge just to the right of it. The whole power outlet including the cover is easily viewable/accessible. If I can get away with not using a GFI and still be code please let me know.

The circuit for the GFI supplies electricity for the garage, garage door and lights. The is only one outlet in the garage.

By the way. I feel honored that I had some part in your writing your first post, even though it was not directly related to Q.

We'd love to hear some Q stories and also any help with electricity.

Jon
 
I assumed that when you said the circuit served only the garage that it was behind the fridge. I think you meant to say that the receptacle serves only the fridge, and that there are other loads on the circuit ..?

Yes, if the receptacle is in plain view and thus could be accessed under normal conditions, it requires GFCI protection. That's code almost anywhere. If it was behind an appliance or another staionary object, like a workbench, then it would not require GFCI protection.

It may trip again at some point, but GFCIs do that from time to time.

Now, the code requires this protection in garages because if you plugged in a heavy tool and somehow got between the hot leg and the ground; i.e. in the electrical path, the GFCI would notice the imbalance and trip the receptacle. So you'd get a minor twinge instead of a fatal shock.

Unless you can put something in front of this receptacle to render it inaccessible (out of plain view), then it must remain GFCI protected.

You could always run another circuit, or branch off of that receptacle. Would depend on if your garage walls are open (just studs) or covered in drywall.

Good to be here and please let me know if I can help out in any way. I do a lot of home rennovations and enjoy it greatly...about as much as smoking on the WSM !!

matt
 

 

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