Looks like I may be going into the Q business


 
D

David Lohrentz

TVWBB Pro
I'm exploring the option of vending food late at night. My wife already operates a mobile food cart during the day time (sushi), but I recently discovered that I can use the same cart at night with a different menu and even a different name hung over the top. No new licenses, equipment, insurance etc. would be necessary, so my overhead would be close to zero.

The people I will be vending to will be mostly students and other youngsters who have been out partying. Not the most discerning customers, but they have few options for decent food.

How feasible will it be to hold food hot for 4 hours? I'll have access to an electric steam table that holds 2 six-inch half pans, plus a couple of crock pots each of which has either one large insert or an insert with two compartments. I'll also have a cambro container and extra half pans and quarter pans if needed. I can afford to purchase another steam table if necessary.

The menu is still flexible but here is the plan at this point:
1. Pulled pork sandwiches
2. grilled chicken sandwiches
3. ABTs (not sure how well this would sell)
4. Biscuits and gravy
5. Breakfast biscuits w/sausage and eggs

Here is what I would need to serve warm:
1. pulled pork
2. grilled chicken thighs
3. biscuits
4. ham gravy
5. smoked breakfast sausage (fattie) cut into 2" x 2" x 1/4" squares
6. scrambled egg cut same size as above
7. ABTs

What is the best way to hold the biscuits? Will the egg get rubbery after 4 hours. Is this menu feasible with the equipment that I have access to?

I'm looking at Aug 16 startup date.
 
David,

You may want to ask these same questions at Roadfood.com. There is a forum there for Restaurant Professionals that includes a lot of cart vendors.

Have you thought about selling bags of frozen pulled pork at the Farmers Market? I thought about this when one of the pork producers said she was out of Berkshire until the Fall slaughter. They may have excess freezer space in the Summer months.

Good luck with your cart. I may stumble by some time.

Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> How feasible will it be to hold food hot for 4 hours? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure I understand the question. You seem to have equipment. Do you mean in terms of quality or in terms of whether the equipment you have can do it?

Biscuits can be heat-lamped (got one?) or left at room temp. Hot gravy will heat the biscuits. So will hot eggs and sausage. Biscuits can also be steam-tabled but you'd want them uncovered or only partially covered.

Eggs can get rubbery. Part of holding them successfully is in how they're originally cooked. What is your plan there (how) and when will you do it?

I'd definitely try the ABTs.

The menu is feasible.

What are your current plans for reheating before you put the food in the table or Crockpots?

You might have other options as to how you reheat. What is the refrigeration availability? Can you cold-hold? Do you have a burner or two on which you can boil water?
 
Where I live if I get a new piece of equipment, I am not talking toasters here either, my local health dept would want to know about it and make a visit. I know if I was doing all my cooking inside then buy a smoker that I use outside they would want to make a visit. I have found them to be pretty much painless here and friendly. You may want to just make a phone call just to make sure.

At my place pulled pork holds very well. The key is keeping some liquid in the pan and the temp just over 140. I don't do any chicken. I am going to start selling wings but I have no experence on how long they will keep warm.

I would think everything else would keep alright. I can tell you a cut fattie starts to really dry out after a couple of hours I suggest keeping them wrapped in foil until you need it. I have seen ABTs on here so many times. I haven't taken the time to look up what they are though.

The scrambled egg. I don't know about the scrambled egg but I do have a suggestion. Have you seen the toaster that will cook an egg and have the toast done at the same time. I was skeptical but it works with little cleanup. This may not be feasable to do if you think you will sell a lot of them. I don't think I would eat an egg that has set to long. If I wouldn't eat I definately won't sell it.
 
Kevin,

My question is related entirely to quality.

The cart has a fairly large commercial refrigerator, so I can cold hold. I have access to a burner and could have a pot with boiling water.

My wife has discovered that one of the keys to doing well selling out of a cart is to really keep the people moving through quickly. She is very quick and always has two people in the cart at during busy times. She is so quick that she rarely gets a line of more than 5 people, so it is somewhat of a double-edged sword as passers-by assume neighboring carts with their lines a mile long are better, but their max capacity is only one-fourth as much as hers. So I want to do things such that it won't take more than a minute or so to serve each person on average.
 
Oh to be a young student again, drinking on State Street. I'm guessing you will be on the Capitol end of State St?
I like the idea of the pulled pork sandwhiches, but am less convinced by the rest. Typically student drunks want fast,flavorful,cheap, and portable(yes that is experience speaking..lol)
Im not so sure I'd want steam table chicken breasts. I'm also not so sure about the breakfast items. McDonalds is now 24 hrs on campus, and the breakfast menu is only small % of the "late nite" menu, making me wonder about the demand. How about something like this: Pulled pork, shredded chicken in the steam tables. Nacho cheese in one crock pot/ for nachos or bbq nachos. Brats/hot dogs you can but them pre-cooked and put them in a steam table as needed. Jumbo pretzels, you can nuke them on demand, and offer them with nacho cheese.ABT's I think are worth a shot,but they might be hard to hold well, and are sort of labor intensive. I would try to take a cue from what has historically done well on State St. I will visit you, and I have more ideas, if your interested. Good Luck.
Matt
 
I have a few thoughts--but first: I am assuming cooking (the actual cooking) is off-site, right? Cool quick, vac and chill or...another plan? Eggs on site or off as well?

Oh--and are we talking 2 6-inch deep half hotels? (Standard 'steam table' pans--restaurant size?)

Jeff is right. PP tables very well if kept moist.
 
Back in the day I would have loved to buy a cup of potatoes (roasted and cut into bite size portions) covered in sausage gravy. Plastic cup+fork+potatoes+gravy=cheap&portable. You can mix it up with some optional add-ons like cheese, onion, pepper, jalapeno, etc.

They might not love you in morning though.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh--and are we talking 2 6-inch deep half hotels? (Standard 'steam table' pans--restaurant size?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin: yes, that is what we have. Cooking is off-site for all items that require cooking.

Matt: vendors used to be able to set up anywhere at night, but now there are only 3 places where night carts are allowed. I don't think they are allowed by the capital. I need to check out the electrical hookups at the allowed sites. I know they have them on library mall, but the traffic isn't as high there as further down on State St.

Pulled chicken is definitely an option I am considering instead of grilled chicken thighs.

I'm not a fan of nachos or hot dogs and I don't really want to serve something that I wouldn't eat.
 
Is it possible to have something on site that generates a little hickory smoke to attract attention?
 
David, a good way to test your speed and product quality would be to invite your fellow forum members up to Madison to party and then try out your cart offerings! Of course after partying and sampling your food we would be too tired to leave, so you would have to put us all up for the night and then serve breakfast! What are your thought on this? :)
 
Here are some thoughts (I'll try to put them in order but...):

Depending on drive time from house to cart and anticipated set-up time, you could reheat much of the stuff you want to open with before you leave and Cambro to the cart. Back-ups can be cold-coolered and switched to the fridge on arrival.

I'd consider FoodSavering pretty much everything and heating in water--both at home and on site. The hot bags from home can be Cambro'd as is, then the steam table cranked on arrival (and a large pot of water started to simmer as well). An advantage to the water reheat is that you can do multiple foods in one pot at the same time. No fuss, no muss.

Consider a slightly higher protein flour for the biscuits to aid structural integrity. (Being an accomplished baker I'm sure you're on that page--just something I'm thinking about.)

With one steam table and two half hotels I'm not quite sure how I'd play it. Much depends on what sell. Doubtless the PP would go into one pan. I'm thinking that in the other I'd put the eggs and the sausage, putting the eggs in half of a half-hotel (quite possibly layered between parchment, pre-cut to size) and the sausage in a container that will fit in the other half (to keep juices from running into the eggs)--or the reverse. The eggs should not go in foil, nor should they touch foil, nor should they be on any sort of rack (plastic they can go in or touch) as eggs are prone to discoloring when not held correctly (they turn a lovely green).

(The eggs, btw, can be scrambled then baked in half- or full sheetpans (use milk and some melted butter in the mix) and then cut when set, cooked and cooled. Or you can cook conventionally and scoop portions. Test run the eggs to get the blend/texture the way you want it.)

I like the grilled thigh idea (I'm clueless as to what will sell in your area but I like the idea). Brined? Grilled then sauced? Either way, cook till food-safe but not done. That will give you reheat leeway. If planning to grill then finish in sauce, grill till food-safe then sauce during cooling and FoodSaver the whole shebang. They can be Crock-potted, split with the gravy.

Gravy can go in a Crock. ABTs are a tough reheat. They'd do best heat-lamped, probably, if no other dry heat source is available. Barring that possibility, I'm not sure you can make it work well given the set-up; it's one I have to think about some more.

I'd FoodSaver everything in smaller bags--thinly--so that reheating would be pretty quick. With a pot of water simmering (no need to boil--and with a cover and a decent burner you should be able to get the pot going on arrival fairly quickly--but so a test run to time it so you know how long it will take) bags can be grabbed from the fridge sooner than later and simply deposited in the water pot, extracted when needed, slit and dumped (gently, of course, with the eggs and sausage so neither gets damaged). The pork bags can be larger (i.e., longer) but should be packed thinly to minimize reheat time. I'd go quite small with the eggs to minimize damage. (I'm working out of my head here so it'll be one of those things you'll discover as you go but that's my current thought line.) Vac-packing also lets you not reheat all you've prepped early on, minimizing waste from having to pitch it at the end of the night or having something dry out on you

Another vac-bag advantage is being able to cool quickly which you'll want to do anyway both for food safety reasons and so that that part of the prep isn't hugely time consuming. An ice water bath for the bags pre-sealing can really speed things up.

A dry Crock set on low (usually) and lined with a kitchen towel can warm then hold biscuits if you want to go that route (cover lightly with another towel--you'll likely not need the lid). Or, if you go with not hot-holding the biscuits, you can hold the chicken in one, gravy in the other.

I'd prefer two steam tables, frankly, and two hot water pots (for flexibility) were it me, so think about that. If you need to add, delete or alter items it would make it much easier. I'd likely shoot to keep the egg/sausage set-up the same, but would move the thighs to a half hotel in the table with the pork, eggs/sausage in the other, putting the biscuits in the other half (not covered, racked, work off the bottom), or I'd leave that half available for something else (Q'd beef round sliced and held in jus? pulled chuck? Italian sausage with onions/peppers for sandwiches? brats?).

(A vac with a wider seal (3mm or better) can be foundhere--the Food-Vac or the Fast Vac. Or double-seal if necessary.)

So that's what I'm thinking at present. Workable? Makes sense or...? Comments?
 
Thanks Kevin, this is extremely useful and I really appreciate your help. For the biscuits I was thinking of doing 50% bread flour and 50% all purpose flour. I'll do a trial run this week and see how they hold up as sandwich biscuits. Maybe 75% or 100% bread flour is better--I'll just have to experiment and see what ratio works better.

We'll probably just get a second steam table, as that is something that will be of value to the day time cart use as well. That will really simplify matters.

Having backup food held cold in vac-bags is not something that I would have come up with on my own, but that is a really good idea. I was thinking it would be held hot in the cambro. At the beginning I know it will be hard to predict how much I will sell, and I know that it will be uneven from one night to the next, so that will really cut down on my needless waste. Moreover, it will really increase my backup capacity.

I was thinking of doing Chili con carne with smoked chuck or brisket point when it gets cold, but as I was think about this the last few days, it will be getting cold at night already a few weeks after my startup date, so I may as well do Chili right from the get go. Instead, I think I'll drop the ABTs since they are labor-intensive and hard to reheat, and I am uncertain whether I can get good quality jalapeños throughout the year.

Chicken thighs--I think brining makes sense since they will stay moist even if reheated to higher than ideal temps. When you say that chicken thighs should be taken to food safe levels before cooling and food savoring, do you mean 160? I do have an idea for the sauce, which will be sweeter than my own preference. I would have thought to apply during the end of grilling. I'm curious why you recommend to apply during cooling. Will the reheat phase give the same effect as applying during the last few minutes of grilling?

I really don't want to serve green eggs and ham. Will eggs discolor if they touch the side of a hotel pan?

Sorry for all the questions, and thanks again for all your ideas.
 
Chili is a very good idea--from my perspective anyway. After an evening of alcohol (me?) chili would be on my list of post-imbibing food. Ani it's perfect for a Crockpot.

Chicken: Yes, 160-165; anywhere in the range. My recommendation on the sauce is twofold. Though I prefer grilled chicken glazed at the end then served, fo hot-holding this can be problematic (but do a trial run of whatever you're planning, complete with cooling, vac-ing, chilling, reheating and holding--for a while). Chicken tends to hold better in some liquid (if not fried and under heat lamps and moved quickly). My suggestion for cooling in some sauce is that the chicken will absorb some during cooling; the second part to that is that the sauce in the bag becomes the liquid for hot-holding.

This is not the same as painting on at the end of grilling, obviously. But you could paint sauce on the tops near the end so that it siezes and colors nicely, pull the thighs, dip the bottoms in sauce and cool, vac and chill. You might need to nap with sauce (as is, or thinned slightly with stock) for the steam table.

Scrambled eggs can turn green in any container but my experience suggests that aluminum speeds the process if it's going to happen. 'If it's going to happen' occurs when the eggs undergo a chemical change due to heat. It is most likely to occur if the eggs are cooked at too high a temp or if held too hot--or too long. (Another reason I suggested the vac-bag/hold-cold/hot water-reheat approach.) Stainless or plastic is better but the big deal is not holding at extreme temps or holding too, too long.

Please let me know what you come up with for a flour ratio on the biscuits.

And shoot me an e sometime (address in profile).

Hope this helps.
 
David; I am trying to understand your thinking on the fatty sausage and the eggs being cut to 2" x 2" x 1/4". If you were to pre-cook your eggs as scrambled in an egg ring, a slice of the round fatty sausage would be just about a perfect fit for the biscuits. You might try to freeze the eggs in foodsaver bags a few at a,time and warm them in the simmering water, as you see how well they are selling. Is your goal with the squares to be White Castle sized?
 
My thinking on the squares has entirely to do with the biscuits. If you do round biscuits, then you have a lot of area between biscuits which you have to re-roll and cut a second time, and even then you have some that has to go a third time. Those second cut biscuits are never as good as the single cut biscuits. This isn't a huge issue when doing them at home with a small batch, when you can give the best ones to your family or friends, but if you are doing larger quantities you magnify the problem. If you do them as squares, then you only have to roll out and cut once. You save time and you eliminate lower quality, second cut biscuits.

I've never had white castle so I don't know what white castle sized means.
 
Quite true. The squares will work best.

(White Castle is a one-time relatively large burger chain that sold small square burgers on small square buns. ('Buy 'em by the bag' was their thing.) They are still around but never became the household name like the other fast food burger places--they were and are mostly a Mid-Western thing--but they were the first actual 'fast food' establishments having begun in the early '20s.)

If you are making your own sausage mix you can 'square' it when you roll it into the Saran for forming. If not, you can still do the same with commercial mix (like Jimmy Dean) simply by squaring off the roll before smoking.
 
Ahem, "buy 'em by the sack" is the slogan.
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They still do very well in the Chicago area. Ah, I remember taking someone from out of town out to "Whities" for burgers. Poor guy thought he was going to die as we drove up the Edens. He found out the hard way why they're called "sliders" and not a pay-toilet in sight.
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Quite true. The squares will work best.

(White Castle is a one-time relatively large burger chain that sold small square burgers on small square buns. ('Buy 'em by the bag' was their thing.) They are still around but never became the household name like the other fast food burger places--they were and are mostly a Mid-Western thing--but they were the first actual 'fast food' establishments having begun in the early '20s.)

If you are making your own sausage mix you can 'square' it when you roll it into the Saran for forming. If not, you can still do the same with commercial mix (like Jimmy Dean) simply by squaring off the roll before smoking. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
When I was a cook at a Bed & Breakfast, I had good luck with scrambled eggs holding on a buffet line by whipping in some sour cream and/or adding some heavy cream at the very end of the scramble. They would hold very nicely in a chafer pan over heat. I rarely let them sit for 45 minutes or more before replacing with fresh, but the help gladly ate them in the kitchen. I also added some monterey jack cheese to them. Kinda high fat in the end, but looked good and tasted great. Just don't overcook them to begin with because they'll continue to cook with carryover heat plus the warmer or whatever your keeping them in.
 
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