Hill Country NYC

[j biesinger]

I was in NYC over the weekend and we had some kids in tow so we favored restaurants that were agreeable with less sophisticated palates. Which worked out for me, because we pretty much never eat bbq out (especially in NYC), and there's a couple places in NYC that I've been wanted to try (RUB, Fette Sau, Fatty Cue, etc). We ended up at Hill Country because is was near where we were, we scored a couple of gc's, and it sounded interesting. The place patterns itself after Kruez Market in Lockhart, TX and they serve Kruez hot links. Lunch was good, but the fun really started when I met the assistant pitmaster who started showing me around the pits and introduced me to the pitmaster. Both were happy to talk shop and it was actually me who had to cut the conversation with a "...I'll let you guys get back to work."

Meat is sold by the pound. We split a pound of "wet" brisket, and a Kruez sausage and a couple of sides.

Brisket was moist, but could have been a tad more tender. Rub was pretty one dimensional, but the bark had a nice caramelization. The sausage had great flavor but was mealy (over cooked?). We traded a bit for a couple of spare ribs and they were just ok, and could have been far more tender.

Here's the APM at the serving counter. He showed me the faux Kruez style pits (back of pic) that are actually just holding bins

This is a shot of a couple of briskets on one of the Southern Pride pits. They cook them 20 hrs at 200* over pure post oak. Their rub is a simple blend of salt, pepper, and cayenne.

Another pit. It looks like I wasn't the first to be shown around the cooking area.

They were also cooking plates of beef short ribs for a special that night, and had pork belly on another pit. The APM told me you never know what you'll find when you open these doors as they are always experimenting (he recalls them smoking a cow head once which I believe is more traditional than experimental).

The smokers are watched over by a gift from the governor of texas, I guess he ate there.

They have what looks to be a nice music venue in the basement.

If you look closely under the "Don't Forget Your Meal Ticket" sign, you can see my daughter getting a timeout for eating all my bbq

Overall, the food was pretty good and it saved me trip to Lockhart (well, sort of). The place certainly isn't cheap (brisket was $22 a lb) but it is Manhattan after all.

 

[Ray Crick]

Nice pics and a nice story. Thanks J.

Ray

 

[Tim L.]

Great post J. Love the pics and the description. It looks like good que in the pics. My limited experience has led me to believe that the chances of a restaurant being able to produce high quality bbq on a large scalle has got to be dang near impossible. You'll have your winners here and there, but for the most part, the best que you're gonna get is out of your own smoker or the smoker of a trusted friend.

Thanks!

 

[Matt H]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tim L.:
Great post J. Love the pics and the description. It looks like good que in the pics. My limited experience has led me to believe that the chances of a restaurant being able to produce high quality bbq on a large scalle has got to be dang near impossible. You'll have your winners here and there, but for the most part, the best que you're gonna get is out of your own smoker or the smoker of a trusted friend.

Thanks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree with Tim. Whenever anything is mass produced, the quality drops of significantly.
Next time you're near the 5 boros, check out Dinosaur BBQ in Harlem...again, mass produced = not perfect, but definitely tasty enough to try.

They have other locations like Syracuse, and Rochester, but Harlem is the best IMO.

http://www.dinosaurbarbque.com/

 

[Frederic]

MoGridder's on East 186th is also very good. About 10 minutes from Yankees stadium. Even though it's in the Bronx, it's a very safe neighborhood.

 

[j biesinger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They have other locations like Syracuse, and Rochester, but Harlem is the best IMO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you been to the other locations? I've been to Rochester and Syracuse, but not Harlem. I'd say both of the places I went to were pretty much identical food. It seems like they have a pretty tight formula, I'd be surprised if you could tell one location was much different than another.

IMO, Dinosaur ranks with Hill Country. Both have passable bbq and fantastic sides. I own the dinosaur cookbook and it contains a ton of great non bbq recipes.

you can read about my trip to the rochester loaction here

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> MoGridder's on East 186th is also very good. About 10 minutes from Yankees stadium. Even though it's in the Bronx, it's a very safe neighborhood. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the suggestion, however this NYC bbq meal was highly atypical for us. We have about 100 places we want to try before we end up at another bbq joint.

 

[PeterD]

Hill Country is by far my favourite commercial Q joint in the five boroughs. I'm in NJ, about a half-hour west of the city and whenever I'm in town I make a stop on West 26th Street for a half-pound of moist brisket and one or two beef bones. They could do the beef bones a bit better (a little too greasy, not as much meat on 'em as I've had in TX), but the brisket is precisely what I'd kill to have come off my pit at home.

I think I met the same APM on my first visit and he was saying they do their briskies 18-20 hours at 200 to 225. I wonder what they are doing differently, because the last time I did a 12# packer I set it on my 18" WSM for about 12 hours, finishing it off in a 225 over for 3 more hours, and it was nowhere near what I got at Hill Country. Very dry and very chewy and it was about 215 internal when it came out of the oven. It tasted better the next day, reheated in vacuum-seal but nothing like what I get from them after 18-20 hours. I'd have thought almost a full-day at 200*F would kill a modest-sized brisket. What lessons should one take away from this?

 

[j biesinger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What lessons should one take away from this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's ironic, because my impression of their brisket was that it was easily reproducible. I told my wife's cousin, who would like to get into bbq, that he could make a brisket that good with a bit of practice.

Lesson's:

Never cook by time and temp. When someone tells you a time and temp, it'll be specific to what they cook and what they cook it on.

The wsm is notoriously difficult to temp, which makes it next to impossible to follow another cook's directions to the letter.

At low temps (<225*) a few degrees up or down can mean hours more or less in cook time. For instance, it takes days to cook briskets when temps get much <200* (like in sous vide applications).

The wsm does not apply heat evenly, conversely The southern prides are like big convection ovens.

I assumed they were cooking so low so it becomes a brainless process. Chuck the packers on, let them spin for a day and the ones they take off for lunch might be a bit tighter and the ones for dinner a bit looser, but none get overdone because they can't overshoot a final internal of 200*.

My general rules for mastering a cut like a brisket goes like this:

1) start out cooking your first few hotter than you would normally would. The cut will progress towards tender at a nice pace and you can feel noticeable differences checking every 20 min as it approaches peak doneness. You're going to need to do a few before you have some confidence, cutting the cook time down to 5-7 hours will let you fit a few into a busy schedule, and if your results are sub par, you don't have a ton invested.

2) once you've cooked a few and you think you know what tender is like, take one a bit further than you have before and see what it takes to get it past tender and near overdone. This is important, especially for brisket, because underdone and overdone are both tough but in different ways. If your cut ends up tough, and you don't know what side you erred on, you're at a loss on how to correct it. This is one downside to cooking hot and fast, you're window of peak doneness is pretty narrow, and if you aren't watching, you could miss it and go from over done to under done.

3) once you got a feel for the cut, then you can back down on heat for your next cook and see if it yields appreciably better results. I take into account my time spent, when considering whether any gains were worth it.

 

[K Kruger]

Good points.

Brisket (and other meats) do not need to be cooked low/slow - many people and many commercial joints (like many of the famous places in Texas) - don't cook low/slow. It's worth trying modulating one's approach to learn the differences and, especially, to get a good sense of the 'done window', as you note.

 

[j biesinger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Brisket (and other meats) do not need to be cooked low/slow - many people and many commercial joints (like many of the famous places in Texas) - don't cook low/slow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

when I was chatting with the pit masters, I found it somewhat ironic that they were modeling themselves after Kreuzs, yet cooked l/s in Southern Prides, and use brick pit-like holding bins. Instead of >300* brick pits they were <200* holding bins, but they do look similar.

Its facts like these that make me realize how temps are just means to the same end. I'm sure the huge difference in the cooking temps have everything to do with how they serve their meat to meet their demand. Not to mention the differences in pit style. The wood fired, brick pit would be easier to maintain HH for a shorter duration and the auto SP's can manage any time and temp.

 

[PeterD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Good points.

Brisket (and other meats) do not need to be cooked low/slow - many people and many commercial joints (like many of the famous places in Texas) - don't cook low/slow. It's worth trying modulating one's approach to learn the differences and, especially, to get a good sense of the 'done window', as you note. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did the HH method a couple of times last year and the results were pretty awful every time. I never managed to hit the nail on the head in terms of the short window (or never left it long enough?? Dunno). What appeared to be "fork-tender" in the thickest part of the flat looked grey and drab (but with a nice smoke ring), and was invariably leather-like - although somewhat better the next day after boil-in-a-bag for 20 minutes.

I'd like to stick with L&S personally. I'd be tickled pink to get my briskies even half as good as what I experience at Hill Country. I'd also love to learn the correct procedure for slicing around the point/flat.

 

[j biesinger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I did the HH method a couple of times last year and the results were pretty awful every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, if neither HH or L/S came out tender, you certainly got your work cut out for you.

Other than recommending patience and practice, I'm plum out of advice.

Oh, I can recommend that you go to restaurants.com, they have 50% off gift certificates for Hill Country.

 

[K Kruger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and was invariably leather-like - although somewhat better the next day after boil-in-a-bag for 20 minutes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This indicates that the brisket is being removed too soon. If you try again, try j's suggestion above and go for longer than you think you should. The done window is narrower at HH but not so fleeting that it makes it very difficult. The brisket needs to get to it though, and it seems you need to go longer,

What do you mean by 'slicing around the point/flat'?

 

[PeterD]

I only did L&S the one time, but I tried HH a few times based on the long HH thread. Once Q season starts in March or April I'll try another L&S but I'd really like to get some more input beforehand (and I'll post as the time approaches). I love crisp bark so I don't mind omitting the foil and going longer on the pit, even it if means fuel management becomes more of an issue. The big issue is cost. Here in north Jersey, IF you can find a full-packer, they're $6 a pound (give or take a half-dollar). Thus a good-sized packer is a major food investment and experimenting on a $60-75 piece of meat is a non-trivial expense!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
What do you mean by 'slicing around the point/flat'? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a way of slicing a brisket that yields what Hill Country calls Moist, which I assume means point and flat or all-point. I never really understood the correct method to carve one up. The flat is pretty obvious (I cut a small corner off the flat that's 90-degrees off the grain and a slice the flat from that end back towards the point. But what I get from the flat is usually (for me) fairly dull and lifeless tasting.

In Montreal, at Schwartz's Deli, they do Smoked Meat and I tried to watch as they carved their brisket but was unable to fully see it. It looked like they cut the top of the brisket off entirely, but it make no sense to me. I've yet to see a YouTube video explaining the correct way to do this.

 

[K Kruger]

'Moist' likely means the point. (In many places that serve both flat and point one orders 'lean' or 'fat', usually, aka flat or point, respectively.) The point is cut across the grain as well.

I've not seen then cut a brisket at Schwartz's that I recall. Maybe they lop the top half of the point off so the slices aren't so wide? Don't know.

 

[PeterD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
I've not seen then cut a brisket at Schwartz's that I recall. Maybe they lop the top half of the point off so the slices aren't so wide? Don't know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That could be it, but from what I've seen, it's as if they take a full packer and slice it in two horizontally and on a bit of a diagonal.Every time I've gotten to Hill Country all their briskets are sliced and I just wind up getting a portion that's already been carved from (usually 3 slices is about all I can eat if I'm in town to do other business and not fall into a MeatComa™)

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