High Heat Brisket - Yes I've Read the Previous Threads


 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Supposedly this curing agent can form carcinogenic compunds when exposed to high heat in meats </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It doesn't take curing salt--nitrosamines can form without it. It's not something I concern myself with, personally, but if you want to give the citric acid a shot, go ahead. Note that citric acid is not a requirement in cured meats.

You can buy TQ on line. Not a fan myself, as I prefer using recipes made with curing salt; cheaper. I buy here.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Supposedly this curing agent can form carcinogenic compunds when exposed to high heat in meats </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It doesn't take curing salt--nitrosamines can form without it. It's not something I concern myself with, personally, but if you want to give the citric acid a shot, go ahead. Note that citric acid is not a requirement in cured meats.

You can buy TQ on line. Not a fan myself, as I prefer using recipes made with curing salt; cheaper. I buy here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would assume nitrosamine formation is increased greatly with the curing salt. When you say citric acid, do you mean ascorbic?

Curing salt #1 had a very high content of sodium nitrite, making it a good low cost source like you said. No active ingredient was listed for curing salt #2. Maybe this only contains sodium nitrate. Tender Quick appeals to me because it already contains sodium nitrate, sodium nitrite, and sugar so its just easier.
 
Yes, ascorboc. Moments earlier I had been writing about citric elsewhere.

Nitrosamine formation seems to increase in cured foods that are cooked or exposed to high heat. They occur in other ways too.

The amounts of curing agenys in curing salt (prague #1 or #2, Insta-cure #1 or #2, DC Cure #1 or #2, etc.) are standard. All #1's contain 6.25% sodium nitrite and the balance in salt, all #2's contain 6.25% sodium nitrite, 4% sodium nitrate and the balance in salt. Sodioum nitrate is unnecessary for things like ham, bacon, pastrami, etc. It is used in dry cured sausage primarily--items that will hang for weeks to cure.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Tender Quick appeals to me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>stuff I dry cure with it is always salty (following the package directions). At least with prague powder you have a little more control of the salt and nitrite levels.

I have a question while we're at it, I read somewhere #2 powder is not to be used for anything that will be fried such as bacon, because it contains nitrates (and it is 'bad' to fry it). Is this correct or untrue? If it's correct should we not be using TQ for bacon?
 
In digging through some notes from some time ago it appears, yes, that that is correct. According to Wayne Gisslen (On Professional Cooking 6th Ed., pp 827):

Using only nitrites to cure foods usually avoids this problem [of nitrosamine formation] because the nitrites break down quickly and are not usually a factor when the food is cooked. Nitrates, on the other hand, because they remain in meats longer, should not be used for curing bacon for this reason.

A key reason nitrite is used for curing food that does not need a long air-dry cure is that it breaks down quickly.
 
i got into the tail of this convo, excuse me if its stated above, but does pink salt contain nitrates?
 
nobody ever mentions that fact that most ingested nitrites come from vegetables like celery. Celery, I've heard is was over the FDA allowable ppm of nitrite. guess you don't fried celery until its crispy.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
In digging through some notes from some time ago it appears, yes, that that is correct. According to Wayne Gisslen (On Professional Cooking 6th Ed., pp 827):

Using only nitrites to cure foods usually avoids this problem [of nitrosamine formation] because the nitrites break down quickly and are not usually a factor when the food is cooked. Nitrates, on the other hand, because they remain in meats longer, should not be used for curing bacon for this reason.

A key reason nitrite is used for curing food that does not need a long air-dry cure is that it breaks down quickly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This arthttp://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question...utrition/DJ0974.htmlicle claims that nitrites used in bacon can for nitrosamines. Extrapolating from article, I would think think nitrites in anything that will be cooked with high heat will form nitrosamines, like my pastrami.
 
I read only a bit because the authors are wrong right at the beginning: Salt is not used mostly
for 'flavor', it is the primary curing agent.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
nobody ever mentions that fact that most ingested nitrites come from vegetables like celery. Celery, I've heard is was over the FDA allowable ppm of nitrite. guess you don't fried celery until its crispy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It is one of the reasons I an unconcerned about nitrosamine formation: lots of it out there and many ways to form it. Too, I don't always use curing salt when I cure. It depends on what I am doing. And I sometimes use celery juice instead of curing salt.

Forgot to mention, Andy, pastrami isn't something one ordinarily makes at high heat, not is it often cooked a second time, like bacon.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dan H.:
i got into the tail of this convo, excuse me if its stated above, but does pink salt contain nitrates? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Three posts before your query, Dan.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And I sometimes use celery juice instead of curing salt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, you're sparking some lost memory. I'm going to have to find the reference for the celery fact to see if they mention anything about it being used for curing too.

Anyways, I'd love a quick summary of how you use this technique. It sounds cool (cure plus flavor) but somewhat imprecise if safe curing is required (or is celery so loaded with nitrite you are actually more safe than pink salt?).

on a side note, it never ceases to amaze me how ironic it is that modern medicine can vilify foods that humans have been consuming for 1000's of years (i.e. butter, curing salts) and completely turn a blind eye to modern miracles (hydrogenated veg oils, HFCS) which all arrive around the same time that heart disease and diabetes reached epidemic proportions. And I just read that flavor labs are trying to find a substitute for salt, do we really need that? Why can't I find stuff that's less sweet? any "low sugar" item that I pick up off a supermarket shelf has an artificial sweetner added.

ok, sorry, please disregard that last bit as it has nothing to do with HH brisket.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hmm, you're sparking some lost memory. I'm going to have to find the reference for the celery fact to see if they mention anything about it being used for curing too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is. I got the idea from a couple commercial makers who use it instead. Haven't done it often enough to think about exact measurements but maybe this week I'll play with it.

I only use pink salt in about half the bacon I cure. The rest is nitrite-free save for anything that might be in the salt (I use a sea salt). Nitrite isn't required, safety-wise, for hot-smoked bacon, pastrami, etc.
 
Finally found a store with tender quick. The pastrami is brining as of 1/31/09. I added vitamin C to the brine. I'll smoke this on Saturday 2/7/09. I'll post pics then.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is. I got the idea from a couple commercial makers who use it instead. Haven't done it often enough to think about exact measurements but maybe this week I'll play with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm, a way for a commercial outfit to skirt the nitrite issue?
 
I smoked the pastrami last night. I used high heat and it turned out tended and juicy. I only have pics of the flat right now. The point turned out even better. Next time I will cut back on the cloves and smoke wood.

Hmmm...not letting me insert pics. I'll work on this later.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The point turned out even better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the higher amount of marbling results in a much more resilient roast. the point is not unlike a pork butt...virtually indestructible.
 
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