Hey, you guys are great by the way. I have had my 22" now for a year and have gotten comfortable with ribs and pork butt. Done about 11 smokes. Thinking father's day is a time to try a brisket. Aside from St Patty's day, I know zip about brisket. I'm reading the articles in the resource center, so hopefully point/flat/etc I will figure out what all that means. I have been reading about the high heat method - should I try that? Is there a location that you can point me two that has step by step how to do that? Also, how do you serve brisket? I seriously have never had this aside from sliced once a year. Slices on sandwhiches? Do you use the same rubs and sauces you use on pork? Thanks. Brian
First Time Trying Brisket
- Thread starter BrianK
- Start date
Russell Y
TVWBB All-Star
That's a lot of questions. I'll try one.
"Is there a location that you can point me two that has step by step how to do that?" You should be able to find the information in this thread - High Temp Brisket I don't know if there is step-by-step.
"Is there a location that you can point me two that has step by step how to do that?" You should be able to find the information in this thread - High Temp Brisket I don't know if there is step-by-step.
Howdy Brian.
Since you have experience with your 22, doing High-Heat Brisket should be within your reach.
Here's the HHB thread - http://tvwbb.com/eve/forums/a/...80069052/m/896100293
You'll need to get your 22" up to about 325º~350º and you may have to prop open the side door to get enough air flow to reach that.
The "flat" is usually served sliced. The "point" is usually chopped up.
I don't use the same rub as I do for pork. There are some good rub receipes under Cooking Topics and the HHB thread, though they may be a bit ... complex.
I just use a commercial rub and for sauce I use Cattleman's or KC Masterpiece.
If you got any more questions just ask. The brisket gurus will be along soon to answer them!
Since you have experience with your 22, doing High-Heat Brisket should be within your reach.
Here's the HHB thread - http://tvwbb.com/eve/forums/a/...80069052/m/896100293
You'll need to get your 22" up to about 325º~350º and you may have to prop open the side door to get enough air flow to reach that.
The "flat" is usually served sliced. The "point" is usually chopped up.
I don't use the same rub as I do for pork. There are some good rub receipes under Cooking Topics and the HHB thread, though they may be a bit ... complex.
If you got any more questions just ask. The brisket gurus will be along soon to answer them!
ChristopherCG
TVWBB Fan
Do you have access to a whole packer or just a flat? I can't get packers here in CT so I'm stuck with flats. My high heat cooks have come out like crap. The only one I've ever had success with is 6.5 lb Angus flat that I cooked for almost 12 hours. It was a tad dry but really tender. If you've got the time I'd suggest a low/slow cook first just to get the hang of it.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You'll need to get your 22" up to about 325º~350º and you may have to prop open the side door to get enough air flow to reach that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
HH is a good way to go but don't get stuck thinking there is an ideal temp range. The brisket will cook at any temp, the higher the faster, the lower the slower.
Build a minion, open all the vents and let the temp ramp up until it wont go any higher. Like Travis said, you'll probably have to do something to increase air flow to get it much over 300*. I don't bother, and let her run where ever she wants.
Have an internal probe and take the brisket into the 160*'s. With the minion start, and a slow ramp up in temp you'll get a great smoke ring and plenty of smoke laid on. For a bigger brisket, I average 3 hours before foiling.
Wrap it in foil, and start checking for doneness in another 2 hours. What's great about going HH is that the brisket will move to tender at an accelerated rate so you can really feel differences, checking it every 30 min or so.
If you need to hold it, be sure to bleed off some heat before holding it in an insulated container. The last one I did, I neglected to do this and it ended up a bit over cooked.
good luck.
HH is a good way to go but don't get stuck thinking there is an ideal temp range. The brisket will cook at any temp, the higher the faster, the lower the slower.
Build a minion, open all the vents and let the temp ramp up until it wont go any higher. Like Travis said, you'll probably have to do something to increase air flow to get it much over 300*. I don't bother, and let her run where ever she wants.
Have an internal probe and take the brisket into the 160*'s. With the minion start, and a slow ramp up in temp you'll get a great smoke ring and plenty of smoke laid on. For a bigger brisket, I average 3 hours before foiling.
Wrap it in foil, and start checking for doneness in another 2 hours. What's great about going HH is that the brisket will move to tender at an accelerated rate so you can really feel differences, checking it every 30 min or so.
If you need to hold it, be sure to bleed off some heat before holding it in an insulated container. The last one I did, I neglected to do this and it ended up a bit over cooked.
good luck.
Thanks for the info. Am I going to be able to get a packer cut at CostCo in NJ do you think? Can you guys tell me how you usually eat your brisket? I seriously have never had it and neither will my guests so, I am not sure if it's just sandwiches and what you put on it, etc. Thanks. Brian
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thanks for the info. Am I going to be able to get a packer cut at CostCo in NJ do you think? Can you guys tell me how you usually eat your brisket? I seriously have never had it and neither will my guests so, I am not sure if it's just sandwiches and what you put on it, etc. Thanks. Brian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
when its cooked and rested, cut away the fat cap and separate the flat from the point. Slice the flat, against the grain, pencil thin (it help to have looong slicing knife). Dredge the slices in the juice that accumulated in the foil (or a combo of juice mixed with sauce). If you pan on a long rest, take the time to recover the juice in a gravy separator, and get the juice away from the fat.
the point can be sauced and tossed back on the smoker. its a bit fattier and can handle the additional cooking without drying out. It can be sliced, chopped, or shredded.
when its cooked and rested, cut away the fat cap and separate the flat from the point. Slice the flat, against the grain, pencil thin (it help to have looong slicing knife). Dredge the slices in the juice that accumulated in the foil (or a combo of juice mixed with sauce). If you pan on a long rest, take the time to recover the juice in a gravy separator, and get the juice away from the fat.
the point can be sauced and tossed back on the smoker. its a bit fattier and can handle the additional cooking without drying out. It can be sliced, chopped, or shredded.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">when its cooked and rested, cut away the fat cap and separate the flat from the point. Slice the flat, against the grain, pencil thin (it help to have looong slicing knife). Dredge the slices in the juice that accumulated in the foil (or a combo of juice mixed with sauce). If you pan on a long rest, take the time to recover the juice in a gravy separator, and get the juice away from the fat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought a pic might help:
I thought a pic might help:
Thank you! The picture did help. I found a local butcher that has full briskets. I am going to try it low and slow this time out. I trimmed it, put some rub on last night. It's at 7.5 lbs. I applied some more rub this morning and just put it in the smoker. I'm at about 240 right now. There is ZERO wind today in central NJ. So, I am targeting about 5pmish done time for dinner. Fingers crossed.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Fingers crossed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
mine too
mine too
Okay, so it ended up being dry. Here are some stats -
- 7.5 Lbs trimmed. There was hardly any fat on the flat when I took out of the package. I left a fair amount of fat on the point side.
- Start 7:30 am fat side up
- 12 noon turned/flipped and basted in apple juice
- 2pm repeated
- At 4pm temp in the point was all over the place over 170. Sections of the flat, particularly by one of the ends was coming up 168. I was targeting 180.
- At 5pm I was still getting readings of 168ish in the flat section. I decided to just take it off at this point.
I loosely foiled and let sit for 45 mins. I separated the two sections. I sliced and no real juices. The point was very good with all that fat however. So for 9.5 hours I am thinking it was on too long. Also, while I was targeting 240 cooker temp, there were times where I was averaging 250-255. So, My instict would be to take off sooner, but I wasn't getting any internal temp readings suggesting it was done. Except the point section. Where did I go wrong there? I'll try to get my pics up. Thanks for your help. I must say, having never had brisket before, it was awesome. Brian
- 7.5 Lbs trimmed. There was hardly any fat on the flat when I took out of the package. I left a fair amount of fat on the point side.
- Start 7:30 am fat side up
- 12 noon turned/flipped and basted in apple juice
- 2pm repeated
- At 4pm temp in the point was all over the place over 170. Sections of the flat, particularly by one of the ends was coming up 168. I was targeting 180.
- At 5pm I was still getting readings of 168ish in the flat section. I decided to just take it off at this point.
I loosely foiled and let sit for 45 mins. I separated the two sections. I sliced and no real juices. The point was very good with all that fat however. So for 9.5 hours I am thinking it was on too long. Also, while I was targeting 240 cooker temp, there were times where I was averaging 250-255. So, My instict would be to take off sooner, but I wasn't getting any internal temp readings suggesting it was done. Except the point section. Where did I go wrong there? I'll try to get my pics up. Thanks for your help. I must say, having never had brisket before, it was awesome. Brian
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Where did I go wrong there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
my guess is that it was undercooked and it never got to tender.
next time try HH and things will progress a lot faster and changes in tenderness will be easier to detect so you know you are heading in the right direction.
Internal temps are deceiving. To get to tender you need to achieve a temp and hold it there until you reach tender. We talk of targets because, chances are if you got to say 195* your meat has spent sufficient time in the temp range where the magic breakdown happens, but its not a certainty.
my guess is that it was undercooked and it never got to tender.
next time try HH and things will progress a lot faster and changes in tenderness will be easier to detect so you know you are heading in the right direction.
Internal temps are deceiving. To get to tender you need to achieve a temp and hold it there until you reach tender. We talk of targets because, chances are if you got to say 195* your meat has spent sufficient time in the temp range where the magic breakdown happens, but its not a certainty.
Okay, so if I Understand, the concept is that It will be dry until it gets to that point for a period of time where the internal XYZ breaks down and creates the juices I am looking for? Interesting. So thinking I left it on too long, I actually didn't leave it on long enough. When I sliced into it, there was zero juice. And it didn't look like there was a lot of stuff waiting to break down. Perhaps the fat between the flat and the point is what breaks down? Thanks for the info. Brian
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Okay, so if I Understand, the concept is that It will be dry until it gets to that point for a period of time where the internal XYZ breaks down and creates the juices I am looking for? Interesting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
brisket starts out tough because it contains a lot of connective tissue. This connective tissue is mostly the protein, collagen. Collagen "melts" into gelatin. If you've ever collected the drippings from a brisket or butt (another tough piece of meat) and chilled it you would have created bbq jello. This is powerful stuff and often described as having an unctuous mouth feel. A tough hunk of meat that has been allowed to get to tender will be very moist. The breakdown of collagen can be compared to melting ice. Ice will warm to 32*F and stall there until it has completely changed phases into water and then begin to increase in temp. When cooking tough meat, it will stall too as heat is being used to melt the collagen. The key though is that the meat is not 100% collagen so you can still get temp increases without the melting. If you cook L/S target temps are typically ok if you get a good stall in.
HTH
brisket starts out tough because it contains a lot of connective tissue. This connective tissue is mostly the protein, collagen. Collagen "melts" into gelatin. If you've ever collected the drippings from a brisket or butt (another tough piece of meat) and chilled it you would have created bbq jello. This is powerful stuff and often described as having an unctuous mouth feel. A tough hunk of meat that has been allowed to get to tender will be very moist. The breakdown of collagen can be compared to melting ice. Ice will warm to 32*F and stall there until it has completely changed phases into water and then begin to increase in temp. When cooking tough meat, it will stall too as heat is being used to melt the collagen. The key though is that the meat is not 100% collagen so you can still get temp increases without the melting. If you cook L/S target temps are typically ok if you get a good stall in.
HTH
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And it didn't look like there was a lot of stuff waiting to break down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is not a lot to see. Interior soft fat deposits might be visible (will be until rendered; less visible after rendering, or not at all, depending on render time and type of fat); connective tissue (the substance that holds the muscle fiber bundles together) is not really visible. But it is this, as j notes, that must break down in order for tough cuts to become tender. If cooking stops before this occurs the meat will feel dry and tough in the mouth, not yet easily chewable. (Conversely, if overcooked, the meat will be dry as well - do to excess moisture/rendered collagen/rendered fat loss - though the meat will be 'tender', just not very moist. For many cuts it will have a stringy feel - dry, chewable, but not pleasant.)
There is not a lot to see. Interior soft fat deposits might be visible (will be until rendered; less visible after rendering, or not at all, depending on render time and type of fat); connective tissue (the substance that holds the muscle fiber bundles together) is not really visible. But it is this, as j notes, that must break down in order for tough cuts to become tender. If cooking stops before this occurs the meat will feel dry and tough in the mouth, not yet easily chewable. (Conversely, if overcooked, the meat will be dry as well - do to excess moisture/rendered collagen/rendered fat loss - though the meat will be 'tender', just not very moist. For many cuts it will have a stringy feel - dry, chewable, but not pleasant.)
I would recommend:
On Food and Cooking, The Science and Lore of The Kitchen. It's pricey so you might just want to sit down and read the meat section of the book.
(From the Book)
Temps:
Rises to 140 degrees:
Meat gets progressively firmer and moister.
Between 140-150 degrees:
Meat suddenly releases lots of juice, shrinks noticeably and becomes chewier. Meat will continue to get more dry, more compacted and stiff.
160 degrees:
Connective-tissue collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin. With time, the connective tissues soften to jelly-like consistency, muscle fibers become easy to pull apart.
I haven't had the book long so I'm trying a few different things. This week I'm going to foil at 140 degrees until 160 degrees to retain the juice that's released. I'm also considering cooling off the smoker to say 200 degrees, once the meat hits 160 degrees, to prolong the period of time the collagen is breaking down.
On Food and Cooking, The Science and Lore of The Kitchen. It's pricey so you might just want to sit down and read the meat section of the book.
(From the Book)
Temps:
Rises to 140 degrees:
Meat gets progressively firmer and moister.
Between 140-150 degrees:
Meat suddenly releases lots of juice, shrinks noticeably and becomes chewier. Meat will continue to get more dry, more compacted and stiff.
160 degrees:
Connective-tissue collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin. With time, the connective tissues soften to jelly-like consistency, muscle fibers become easy to pull apart.
I haven't had the book long so I'm trying a few different things. This week I'm going to foil at 140 degrees until 160 degrees to retain the juice that's released. I'm also considering cooling off the smoker to say 200 degrees, once the meat hits 160 degrees, to prolong the period of time the collagen is breaking down.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I haven't had the book long so I'm trying a few different things. This week I'm going to foil at 140 degrees until 160 degrees to retain the juice that's released. I'm also considering cooling off the smoker to say 200 degrees, once the meat hits 160 degrees, to prolong the period of time the collagen is breaking down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you merely "collecting" the juice for a sauce or trying to retain it to keep the meat moist? I assume you mean the former. Once the fibers are heated and they contract, and they squeeze out their water, it isn't coming back. No amount of mopping, foiling, etc can keep it moist. Your only hope it to get it to tender and hope it was marbled to start with.
A hold is possible, you may want to consider using an insulated box for this. You'll be surprised at how long a roast can stay over 160* in a cooler. I'm keeping therm probes in during my hold and I'm thinking its part of my problem, I held a HH brisket for about an hour and when I sliced it, it was over cooked.
Too much collagen breakdown is not a good thing, butts will be mushy and briskets will end up like pot roast.
since we're deep in the science, I'll toss this out:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Prolonged cooking (e.g., braising) has been used to make tough cuts of meat more palatable since ancient times. Indeed, prolonged cooking can more than double the tenderness of the meat by dissolving all the collagen into gelatin and reducing inter-fiber adhesion to essentially nothing (Davey et al., 1976). At 176°F (80°C), Davey et al. (1976) found that these effects occur within about 12–24 hours with tenderness increasing only slightly when cooked for 50 to 100 hours.
At lower temperatures (120°F/50°C to 150°F/ 65°C), Bouton and Harris (1981) found that tough cuts of beef (from animals 0–4 years old) were the most tender when cooked to between 131°F and 140°F (55°C and 60°C). Cooking the beef for 24 hours at these temperatures significantly increased its tenderness (with shear forces decreasing 26%–72% compared to 1 hour of cooking). This tenderizing is caused by weakening of connective tissue and proteolytic enzymes decreasing myofibrillar tensile strength. Indeed, <span class="ev_code_RED">collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin above 122°F to 131°F</span> (50°C to 55°C) (Neklyudov, 2003; This, 2006). Moreover, the sarcoplasmic protein enzyme collagenase remains active below 140°F (60°C) and can significantly tenderize the meat if held for more than 6 hours (Tornberg, 2005). This is why beef chuck roast cooked in a 131°F–140°F (55°C–60°C) water bath for 24–48 hours has the texture of filet mignon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
from: Douglas Baldwin, A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking
Are you merely "collecting" the juice for a sauce or trying to retain it to keep the meat moist? I assume you mean the former. Once the fibers are heated and they contract, and they squeeze out their water, it isn't coming back. No amount of mopping, foiling, etc can keep it moist. Your only hope it to get it to tender and hope it was marbled to start with.
A hold is possible, you may want to consider using an insulated box for this. You'll be surprised at how long a roast can stay over 160* in a cooler. I'm keeping therm probes in during my hold and I'm thinking its part of my problem, I held a HH brisket for about an hour and when I sliced it, it was over cooked.
Too much collagen breakdown is not a good thing, butts will be mushy and briskets will end up like pot roast.
since we're deep in the science, I'll toss this out:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Prolonged cooking (e.g., braising) has been used to make tough cuts of meat more palatable since ancient times. Indeed, prolonged cooking can more than double the tenderness of the meat by dissolving all the collagen into gelatin and reducing inter-fiber adhesion to essentially nothing (Davey et al., 1976). At 176°F (80°C), Davey et al. (1976) found that these effects occur within about 12–24 hours with tenderness increasing only slightly when cooked for 50 to 100 hours.
At lower temperatures (120°F/50°C to 150°F/ 65°C), Bouton and Harris (1981) found that tough cuts of beef (from animals 0–4 years old) were the most tender when cooked to between 131°F and 140°F (55°C and 60°C). Cooking the beef for 24 hours at these temperatures significantly increased its tenderness (with shear forces decreasing 26%–72% compared to 1 hour of cooking). This tenderizing is caused by weakening of connective tissue and proteolytic enzymes decreasing myofibrillar tensile strength. Indeed, <span class="ev_code_RED">collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin above 122°F to 131°F</span> (50°C to 55°C) (Neklyudov, 2003; This, 2006). Moreover, the sarcoplasmic protein enzyme collagenase remains active below 140°F (60°C) and can significantly tenderize the meat if held for more than 6 hours (Tornberg, 2005). This is why beef chuck roast cooked in a 131°F–140°F (55°C–60°C) water bath for 24–48 hours has the texture of filet mignon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
from: Douglas Baldwin, A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
All correct, of course, and this is why I am often posting - just did moments ago in another thread - that, with barbecue, internal temp does not equal tender, i.e., targeting an internal temp does not mean an automatic tender result. It is time that causes tenderness. The amount of time is relative to the cooktemp used and the meat in question.
Though it busts a common barbecue myth, tough meats do not have to be cooked low/slow, nor is lower and slower necessarily better. Everything depends on the cut of meat one is working with and the choices one has for cooking. I've cooked meats at the temps noted in j's quote above with excellent results - but this is cooking sous vide, not barbecue. One has to consider - with barbecue - the type of meat, its internal, surface and muscle fiber structure, and whether or not the meat in question can sustain the moisture loss that can occur with lower, slower cooking. (Select and typical Choice briskets don't do so well, usually; Prime can, as can, of course, butts.)
Though it busts a common barbecue myth, tough meats do not have to be cooked low/slow, nor is lower and slower necessarily better. Everything depends on the cut of meat one is working with and the choices one has for cooking. I've cooked meats at the temps noted in j's quote above with excellent results - but this is cooking sous vide, not barbecue. One has to consider - with barbecue - the type of meat, its internal, surface and muscle fiber structure, and whether or not the meat in question can sustain the moisture loss that can occur with lower, slower cooking. (Select and typical Choice briskets don't do so well, usually; Prime can, as can, of course, butts.)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
<span class="ev_code_RED">collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin above 122°F to 131°F</span> (50°C to 55°C) (Neklyudov, 2003; This, 2006). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Everywhere I've read it's been 140 degrees. The book I mentioned above (2004) collagen:
100 degrees: Intact
130 degrees: Sheaths begin to weaken
140 degrees: Sheaths shrink, squeeze cells
160 degrees: Beings to dissolve
200 degrees: Dissolving rapidly
I am retaining the juice for later...Thanks for the advice, I'm trying to learn everything I can...
<span class="ev_code_RED">collagen begins to dissolve into gelatin above 122°F to 131°F</span> (50°C to 55°C) (Neklyudov, 2003; This, 2006). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Everywhere I've read it's been 140 degrees. The book I mentioned above (2004) collagen:
100 degrees: Intact
130 degrees: Sheaths begin to weaken
140 degrees: Sheaths shrink, squeeze cells
160 degrees: Beings to dissolve
200 degrees: Dissolving rapidly
I am retaining the juice for later...Thanks for the advice, I'm trying to learn everything I can...
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Everywhere I've read it's been 140 degrees. The book I mentioned above (2004) collagen: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
check out the link, its solid. In addition to the references listed after the quote, he cites mcgee.
check out the link, its solid. In addition to the references listed after the quote, he cites mcgee.