JMGarciaJr
TVWBB Fan
Incidentally, I must vouch for the excellentness of sumac and lemon zest, especially with lamb.
Deconstructing Williams-Sonoma's Chili-Lime rub
- Thread starter JMGarciaJr
- Start date
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
guess I'm sitting pretty with souring agents. last month, I scored some amchoor, vinegar powder, and sumac. I haven't tasted any, so I can say exactly the ratio of fruit to sour. maybe I'll do that soon and give a detailed report.
Kevin, I notice you recommend vinegar powder over citric acid. my vin powder is listed as powdered acetic acid. I figured they would be similar (sour with little flavor). I suppose I should do a direct comparison. Anyways, I was wondering if acetic acid and vinegar powder are the same thing or is a.a. a cheaper verision?
Kevin, I notice you recommend vinegar powder over citric acid. my vin powder is listed as powdered acetic acid. I figured they would be similar (sour with little flavor). I suppose I should do a direct comparison. Anyways, I was wondering if acetic acid and vinegar powder are the same thing or is a.a. a cheaper verision?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its a potent souring agent. I'm wondering if it might help add some punch to rubs with citrus zest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It can--but that is all it adds. Nothing in the way of flavor. That's fine as far as it goes; if that's all you require for a rub you're working on it can work okay. There are other souring agents that, imo, work better because they also boost flavor qualities (the high and/or low notes of fruitiness): vinegar powder, amchoor, sumac, powdered wines et al., all do this.
Cameron-- If you haven't, try cochinita pibil, a Yucatecan dish that, while a little involved, is worth every moment. Pics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like involved - that looks wonderful.
Thanks!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its a potent souring agent. I'm wondering if it might help add some punch to rubs with citrus zest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It can--but that is all it adds. Nothing in the way of flavor. That's fine as far as it goes; if that's all you require for a rub you're working on it can work okay. There are other souring agents that, imo, work better because they also boost flavor qualities (the high and/or low notes of fruitiness): vinegar powder, amchoor, sumac, powdered wines et al., all do this.
Cameron-- If you haven't, try cochinita pibil, a Yucatecan dish that, while a little involved, is worth every moment. Pics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like involved - that looks wonderful.
Thanks!
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
Anyways, I was wondering if acetic acid and vinegar powder are the same thing or is a.a. a cheaper verision? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Taste it directly; taste both directly, at different times. Technically all vinegar powders are acetic acid. But those made from fruit or wine vinegars taste of their sources while that made from distilled white does not. Similarly, citric acid, imo, lacks fruit notes. This can be useful when one wants to balance overly fruity or sweet flavors (sweet orange juice comes immediately to mind as it is often too much in, say, a marinade, and citric acid will tone it down and balance the profile -- good when marinating, especially, pork or fowl). Good too when making fruit juice-based vinaigrettes (when one doesn't want to use actual vinegar) or when making gastriques when one wants to have a clear fruit flavor at the finish but not have it be cloying. Try, e.g., a cherry juice vinaigrette with sweet cherry juice balanced with citric acid, a little Dijon for flavor and emulsification, minced shallot, black pepper, salt, and evoo, as a drizzle or dressing for, say, grilled then sliced beef steak served over arugula or frisée, with scattered sweet onion and maybe a little salty cheese like feta, or something tangy like goat, as a small first course or a lunch item. Cherry juice alone is too sweet. Adding vinegar can work but citric acid keeps the cherry notes clear yet mitigates what would be the cloying finish that would work against the grilled beef.
I like 'involved' too, Cameron.
Anyways, I was wondering if acetic acid and vinegar powder are the same thing or is a.a. a cheaper verision? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Taste it directly; taste both directly, at different times. Technically all vinegar powders are acetic acid. But those made from fruit or wine vinegars taste of their sources while that made from distilled white does not. Similarly, citric acid, imo, lacks fruit notes. This can be useful when one wants to balance overly fruity or sweet flavors (sweet orange juice comes immediately to mind as it is often too much in, say, a marinade, and citric acid will tone it down and balance the profile -- good when marinating, especially, pork or fowl). Good too when making fruit juice-based vinaigrettes (when one doesn't want to use actual vinegar) or when making gastriques when one wants to have a clear fruit flavor at the finish but not have it be cloying. Try, e.g., a cherry juice vinaigrette with sweet cherry juice balanced with citric acid, a little Dijon for flavor and emulsification, minced shallot, black pepper, salt, and evoo, as a drizzle or dressing for, say, grilled then sliced beef steak served over arugula or frisée, with scattered sweet onion and maybe a little salty cheese like feta, or something tangy like goat, as a small first course or a lunch item. Cherry juice alone is too sweet. Adding vinegar can work but citric acid keeps the cherry notes clear yet mitigates what would be the cloying finish that would work against the grilled beef.
I like 'involved' too, Cameron.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
Anyways, I was wondering if acetic acid and vinegar powder are the same thing or is a.a. a cheaper verision? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Taste it directly; taste both directly, at different times. Technically all vinegar powders are acetic acid. But those made from fruit or wine vinegars taste of their sources while that made from distilled white does not. Similarly, citric acid, imo, lacks fruit notes. This can be useful when one wants to balance overly fruity or sweet flavors (sweet orange juice comes immediately to mind as it is often too much in, say, a marinade, and citric acid will tone it down and balance the profile -- good when marinating, especially, pork or fowl). Good too when making fruit juice-based vinaigrettes (when one doesn't want to use actual vinegar) or when making gastriques when one wants to have a clear fruit flavor at the finish but not have it be cloying. Try, e.g., a cherry juice vinaigrette with sweet cherry juice balanced with citric acid, a little Dijon for flavor and emulsification, minced shallot, black pepper, salt, and evoo, as a drizzle or dressing for, say, grilled then sliced beef steak served over arugula or frisée, with scattered sweet onion and maybe a little salty cheese like feta, or something tangy like goat, as a small first course or a lunch item. Cherry juice alone is too sweet. Adding vinegar can work but citric acid keeps the cherry notes clear yet mitigates what would be the cloying finish that would work against the grilled beef.
I like 'involved' too, Cameron.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great tips - much appreciated, I have a feeling my salad dressing game is about to improve!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
Anyways, I was wondering if acetic acid and vinegar powder are the same thing or is a.a. a cheaper verision? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Taste it directly; taste both directly, at different times. Technically all vinegar powders are acetic acid. But those made from fruit or wine vinegars taste of their sources while that made from distilled white does not. Similarly, citric acid, imo, lacks fruit notes. This can be useful when one wants to balance overly fruity or sweet flavors (sweet orange juice comes immediately to mind as it is often too much in, say, a marinade, and citric acid will tone it down and balance the profile -- good when marinating, especially, pork or fowl). Good too when making fruit juice-based vinaigrettes (when one doesn't want to use actual vinegar) or when making gastriques when one wants to have a clear fruit flavor at the finish but not have it be cloying. Try, e.g., a cherry juice vinaigrette with sweet cherry juice balanced with citric acid, a little Dijon for flavor and emulsification, minced shallot, black pepper, salt, and evoo, as a drizzle or dressing for, say, grilled then sliced beef steak served over arugula or frisée, with scattered sweet onion and maybe a little salty cheese like feta, or something tangy like goat, as a small first course or a lunch item. Cherry juice alone is too sweet. Adding vinegar can work but citric acid keeps the cherry notes clear yet mitigates what would be the cloying finish that would work against the grilled beef.
I like 'involved' too, Cameron.
Great tips - much appreciated, I have a feeling my salad dressing game is about to improve!
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
I finally got around to doing a little taste testing with my newly formed collection of souring agents.
I tasted each of the following alone and mixed with some lime zest. The lime (persian) wasn't in particularly good condition so the zest was a bit on the bitter side. All the powders came from Kalustyan's in NYC. The citric acid came from a cheese making kit.
Amchoor powder (green mango)
sour power: fairly low
in addition to sour it had some lemony notes and a bit of a spice or woodsy note. I thought it would integrate well with traditional bbq spices. I didn't think it integrated well with the lime zest. rather than focusing on the lemon/fruit, I kept tasting the more forward woodsy notes. The low souring meant I had to add more to get an effect which brought more of its other flavors into play (distracting from the lime).
This powder had one thing about it that I did not like. Its texture/mouthfeel was very dry and grainy. I’m not sure how it would be after rehydrating with juices from meat, but if its low souring means more in the mix, and more in the mix means grainy rub, well you get my point.
Lemon Powder
Sour power: extremely low
This stuff had no redeeming qualities. I purchased it thinking I could make my own lemon pepper, but it does not taste much like lemon. The best I could come up with might be some kind of chlorine based cleaner.
Sumac berries
Sour power: medium
I was impressed by the sour in the red skins of these little berries. I tasted some fruit notes that tended towards raspberry. It integrated nicely with lime zest and had some potential to be incorporated into a citrus flavored grilling rub.
I never ground whole berries before. The skins came off when ground in the mortar, however the seeds (similar to annatto) resisted. Are the seeds typically ground too?
Vinegar powder (acetic acid)
Sour power: high
The best way to describe this is if you think of the flavor of salt and vinegar potato chips. I purchased this because my wife likes to soggy up our crispy French fries with vinegar, and I though this might be a nice compromise. I was right on, this stuff is exactly what you would expect. It has a distinct vinegar taste but its fairly one dimensional. It integrated well with lime zest making kind of a lime vinegrette flavor.
Citric Acid
Sour power: EXTREMELY high
With this stuff, think: sour patch kids. My wife likens it to when you burp and get a bit of stomach acid in you mouth. All its got going for it is mouth puckering sourness. I added a tiny bit to the zest and it really did a nice job of totally overpowering it. Playing around some more with the mix, helped a bit, and it had some potential if used judiciously with salt and sugar. I can see this stuff making an awesome rim salt for a margarita for those of us that enjoy an occasional warhead or sour patch kid.
I tasted each of the following alone and mixed with some lime zest. The lime (persian) wasn't in particularly good condition so the zest was a bit on the bitter side. All the powders came from Kalustyan's in NYC. The citric acid came from a cheese making kit.
Amchoor powder (green mango)
sour power: fairly low
in addition to sour it had some lemony notes and a bit of a spice or woodsy note. I thought it would integrate well with traditional bbq spices. I didn't think it integrated well with the lime zest. rather than focusing on the lemon/fruit, I kept tasting the more forward woodsy notes. The low souring meant I had to add more to get an effect which brought more of its other flavors into play (distracting from the lime).
This powder had one thing about it that I did not like. Its texture/mouthfeel was very dry and grainy. I’m not sure how it would be after rehydrating with juices from meat, but if its low souring means more in the mix, and more in the mix means grainy rub, well you get my point.
Lemon Powder
Sour power: extremely low
This stuff had no redeeming qualities. I purchased it thinking I could make my own lemon pepper, but it does not taste much like lemon. The best I could come up with might be some kind of chlorine based cleaner.
Sumac berries
Sour power: medium
I was impressed by the sour in the red skins of these little berries. I tasted some fruit notes that tended towards raspberry. It integrated nicely with lime zest and had some potential to be incorporated into a citrus flavored grilling rub.
I never ground whole berries before. The skins came off when ground in the mortar, however the seeds (similar to annatto) resisted. Are the seeds typically ground too?
Vinegar powder (acetic acid)
Sour power: high
The best way to describe this is if you think of the flavor of salt and vinegar potato chips. I purchased this because my wife likes to soggy up our crispy French fries with vinegar, and I though this might be a nice compromise. I was right on, this stuff is exactly what you would expect. It has a distinct vinegar taste but its fairly one dimensional. It integrated well with lime zest making kind of a lime vinegrette flavor.
Citric Acid
Sour power: EXTREMELY high
With this stuff, think: sour patch kids. My wife likens it to when you burp and get a bit of stomach acid in you mouth. All its got going for it is mouth puckering sourness. I added a tiny bit to the zest and it really did a nice job of totally overpowering it. Playing around some more with the mix, helped a bit, and it had some potential if used judiciously with salt and sugar. I can see this stuff making an awesome rim salt for a margarita for those of us that enjoy an occasional warhead or sour patch kid.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Amchoor isn't one I'd mix with lime. It does not retain its grainy characteristic when used in dry rubs, softens in pastes and when added to, say, braising liquids.
Make your own citrus zest powders. Freeze excess; refridgerate rubs/spice blends that you make with them.
Make your own citrus zest powders. Freeze excess; refridgerate rubs/spice blends that you make with them.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Make your own citrus zest powders. Freeze excess; refridgerate rubs/spice blends that you make with them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do occasionally, I grabbed the lemon powder out of curiosity.
ironically, I happened to be eating chili lime almonds (diamond) later in the day and decided to see what they used to get their insane lime flavor. ingredients read: lime juice solids, citric acid AND acietic acid. I think I might try combining a few souring agents to see if I can get something with a nice sour kick, some complexity, without the candy quality that citric acid brings to the table.
I do occasionally, I grabbed the lemon powder out of curiosity.
ironically, I happened to be eating chili lime almonds (diamond) later in the day and decided to see what they used to get their insane lime flavor. ingredients read: lime juice solids, citric acid AND acietic acid. I think I might try combining a few souring agents to see if I can get something with a nice sour kick, some complexity, without the candy quality that citric acid brings to the table.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
For something like that try lime juice powder. Search at American Spice.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Has anyone tried True Lime? I use it all the time as water favoring at work and have tried it once at home as seasoning. I will have to try it again as I don't even remember what I experimented with (must not have been too memorable Confused). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
true lime, number one ingredient?
bingo!
citric acid
I was snooping around the site, wondering if I should order a free sample. Took a me a while to find the ingredients, but I wasn't too impressed. Seems like in addition to the citric acid its just lime oil.
Seems like it might work, but my doubts along with yours, Keith, makes me think we should stick with zest. They state specifically that this product can not be substituted for zest in recipe.
true lime, number one ingredient?
bingo!
citric acid
I was snooping around the site, wondering if I should order a free sample. Took a me a while to find the ingredients, but I wasn't too impressed. Seems like in addition to the citric acid its just lime oil.
Seems like it might work, but my doubts along with yours, Keith, makes me think we should stick with zest. They state specifically that this product can not be substituted for zest in recipe.
JMGarciaJr
TVWBB Fan
OK.
Here is v 2.0...to be tested on this weekend.
1 tablespoon lime juice powder
2 teaspoons granulated garlic
2 teaspoons granulated onion
2 teaspoons medium (unsmoked) Spanish paprika
1 teaspoon ground guajillo chile
½ teaspoon "raw" sugar
½ teaspoon cumin seeds, ground
½ teaspoon dried fresh cilantro stems*
½ teaspoon fresh ground black pepper
½ teaspoon ground chipotle chile
More to come as I 'speriment.
-Joe
* These SEEM to hold up better with cooking than regular cilantro flakes
Here is v 2.0...to be tested on this weekend.
1 tablespoon lime juice powder
2 teaspoons granulated garlic
2 teaspoons granulated onion
2 teaspoons medium (unsmoked) Spanish paprika
1 teaspoon ground guajillo chile
½ teaspoon "raw" sugar
½ teaspoon cumin seeds, ground
½ teaspoon dried fresh cilantro stems*
½ teaspoon fresh ground black pepper
½ teaspoon ground chipotle chile
More to come as I 'speriment.
-Joe
* These SEEM to hold up better with cooking than regular cilantro flakes
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">* These SEEM to hold up better with cooking than regular cilantro flakes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I haven't had much luck with dried cilantro, I got some at penzey's and I'm not sure why they even bother to sell it to me, its flavorless.
thanks for the tip. I'm going through a bunch of cilantro today,I'll have to reserve the stems.
I haven't had much luck with dried cilantro, I got some at penzey's and I'm not sure why they even bother to sell it to me, its flavorless.
thanks for the tip. I'm going through a bunch of cilantro today,I'll have to reserve the stems.
JMGarciaJr
TVWBB Fan
FWIW, I got one of those countertop food dehydrators and I believe that's the ticket for drying out the cilantro stems. Also, I suggest not making the cut bits too small.
So far, my wildly unscientific digging seems to indicate the dried stems have a mild flavor when cooked, as opposed to the dried leaf flakes which, when cooked, merely change color.
I also may play around with grated lime rind and a teeny bit of citric acid to correct the tartness, and then compare it to lime juice powder.
Still working at it,
So far, my wildly unscientific digging seems to indicate the dried stems have a mild flavor when cooked, as opposed to the dried leaf flakes which, when cooked, merely change color.
I also may play around with grated lime rind and a teeny bit of citric acid to correct the tartness, and then compare it to lime juice powder.
Still working at it,
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">FWIW, I got one of those countertop food dehydrators and I believe that's the ticket for drying out the cilantro stems. Also, I suggest not making the cut bits too small.
So far, my wildly unscientific digging seems to indicate the dried stems have a mild flavor when cooked, as opposed to the dried leaf flakes which, when cooked, merely change color.
I also may play around with grated lime rind and a teeny bit of citric acid to correct the tartness, and then compare it to lime juice powder.
Still working at it, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
good work, thanks for the info. A dehydrator would be a nice addition to my kitchen.
I checked out the ones at at the local showroom for sausagemaker.com because its the brand used by alinea in chicago. they're sweet but a little pricey for something I'd basically have to find uses for.
I tried some lemon powder and orange powder from a spice shop in nyc. Both were horrid and not worth using in a recipe. I recall the lemon powder being like sawdust with a faint taste of some cleaner like pledge. I'm back to zesting and drying my own citrus.
recently I've seen some grilling recipes that used preserve citrus, I'm wondering if that might be a way to go too.
So far, my wildly unscientific digging seems to indicate the dried stems have a mild flavor when cooked, as opposed to the dried leaf flakes which, when cooked, merely change color.
I also may play around with grated lime rind and a teeny bit of citric acid to correct the tartness, and then compare it to lime juice powder.
Still working at it, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
good work, thanks for the info. A dehydrator would be a nice addition to my kitchen.
I tried some lemon powder and orange powder from a spice shop in nyc. Both were horrid and not worth using in a recipe. I recall the lemon powder being like sawdust with a faint taste of some cleaner like pledge. I'm back to zesting and drying my own citrus.
recently I've seen some grilling recipes that used preserve citrus, I'm wondering if that might be a way to go too.
JMGarciaJr
TVWBB Fan
j
The dehydrator I got was a small one from My Local Drugstore, and it's also great for making "sun" dried tomatoes, banana chips, etc. Pretty cheap, too...something like $10. It is, unarguably, a cheap thing, but no complaints thus far.
It's also pretty useful with mangoes because our tree...well, let's just say there are a TON of mangoes for about a week, and then nothing for the next 51 weeks. (I exaggerate slightly for effect.)
Now, this gives me an idea that it may be very useful for drying out grated citrus zests...
-Joe
PS There are a few books/websites that show you how to make "solar dehydrators" pretty cheap. If (WHEN!) my cheapo drugstore food dehydrator packs up and dies, I'll probably try my hand at making one of those.
The dehydrator I got was a small one from My Local Drugstore, and it's also great for making "sun" dried tomatoes, banana chips, etc. Pretty cheap, too...something like $10. It is, unarguably, a cheap thing, but no complaints thus far.
It's also pretty useful with mangoes because our tree...well, let's just say there are a TON of mangoes for about a week, and then nothing for the next 51 weeks. (I exaggerate slightly for effect.)
Now, this gives me an idea that it may be very useful for drying out grated citrus zests...
-Joe
PS There are a few books/websites that show you how to make "solar dehydrators" pretty cheap. If (WHEN!) my cheapo drugstore food dehydrator packs up and dies, I'll probably try my hand at making one of those.