cooking prime briskets


 
J

Joe McManus

TVWBB All-Star
Got a case of nice prime packers.

I'm practicing with 'em for comps this summer.

They seem to cook a little differnt than the lower grade cuts. These are very nicely marbled and have a decent fat cap on 'em.

My first test was to cook them at a little lower temperature than usual, about 220* or so. Flavor was great, smoke ring great, pulled them when they were about 185 or 187. Must admit they still didn't feel quite done, but didn't want to dry them out. They could have definitely cooked longer as they were still a too "springy", at least for competition slices, and the non-injected one still did dry out too much.

Is there any advantage to cooking a little warmer, say more like 250, 260, 270 to speed that process up? I didn't foil these. I've haven't foiled other ones in the past and had good luck.

Just looking for some thoughts. Thanks.

Joey Mac
 
Joe-

I wondered the same thing after watching a few of the pros cook brisket on the All-Start BBQ challenge. Some of them cooked at the 300-320 range and had the brisket done is less than 4 hours and I do believe they foiled.

I prefer to keep the temps between 235-250 one of my suggestions is to keep the fat cap down for the first hour. I have found this will keep the meat from drying out. Also before I shut the lid and after the frist hour when I flip the meat fat cap up I put some type of mop on it.

As for foiling I agree with you I have had great luck without foiling.

P.S. I am only 25 min from Naperville if you need a taste tester. LOL

Rick
The Smoke Hunters BBQ
 
Joey
I have been cooking Primes and Kobes now for two years, I had a conversation with Adam Perry Lang at the Royal this year about what temps to cook these critters, we agree on pit temps. I find lower temps 190 to 210 better than higher temps. There is much less connective tissue than you find in a choice or select brisket, if you cook Primes at higher temps without the connective tissue to keep things moist you cook out the internal fat and you also lose mouth feel if you cook at too high a pit temp.
Jim
 
Thanks Jim. You mentioned that about Kobes last year. These aren't Kobes, but they are nice primes.

I'll keep experimenting with the lower temps, see what comes of it. Would be shame to dry these guys out.
 
Moreso than choice or select cuts, I find prime cuts to be far more consistent.

I've been working on a non-barbecue project (much of it in my head at this point) involving various 'tough' cuts of meat (not brisket at the moment) including beef, pork, and lamb. An advantage to prime or Wagyu beef, imo, is that if you can find a good supplier you can basically repeat a procedure (or just elements of a procedure during the expermentation phase) and be more confident of similar results from cook to cook. Obviously there are some varying factors that always come into play--weight, thickness, and so forth--but the overall consistency is there. This type of consistency, I find, is harder to rely on when using choice-graded beef.
 
I've decided to go with choice briskets for my everyday cooks and figured I might go with CAB or prime briskets for comps. Let's say I have two identical briskets, one choice and one prime. Will there be that much difference in the way they cook? And if both are cooked correctly, will the taste and texture difference be that noticeable or obvious? Is consistency the only plus when buying prime? The reason I ask is because I've been led to believe that CAB and/or prime briskets just aren't worth the extra cost, even for comps.

BTW ... I think I cook a pretty mean choice brisket. (thanks to the advice I've gotten from you guys) So what will using prime add to the mix?

Kevin and Jim, do you ever inject your briskets?
I don't and wondered if y'all thought it was necessary? The couple of times I tried it didn't seem to do much for the brisket except leave streaks in the meat. Not saying injecting is a bad thing, it just hasn't worked out for me. Thanks in advance!!!

Rick
 
As you know, I don't compete but were I to I would certainly consider prime, especially if the price was reasonable (as one might find buying by the case from a meat supplier).

One can turn out a superb brisket with a good choice cut but, imo, prime, with its finer marbling is a superior product both in consistency of cooking and in results. The cooking dynamics are different with prime beef so one's approach must suit those dynamics as Jim notes upthread. Though I am familiar with judging criteria I am not familiar with the specifics of what judges are taught nor know whether judges, on the whole, are capable of appreciating the difference between an expertly cooked choice cut and an expertly cooked prime cut. I think that if faced with those two variables other factors (if unequal) would come into play in deciding which was better (rub and overall flavor, presentation, et.al.). It practically goes without saying though that an expertly cooked choice up against a not-so-expertly cooked prime cut would have the advantage. Just because the cut is prime does not automatically give it the advantage. It still has to be cooked perfectly and we all know the myriad variables we deal with in our attempts to pull that off.

I think working with choice to perfect your technique is wise if prime comes with a fat premium. After you get a comfortable handle on rub, cooking, finish and presentation you can adapt your approach to prime, try it, and then see if it worth it to you. Jim might have some more insight there. Do check with the suppliers in your area to see what the case price is on both choice and prime (it doesn't hurt to tell them what you're using it for!).

Jim can speak to the question better on whether prime is worth the extra cost for comps. I would think that it would be if the effort is made to cook it correctly.

CAB, unless it is marked 'prime', is choice beef. I have not found it worth any premium in the presence of a supply of non-CAB choice. If the only choice I could get was at the low end of the choice stratum or if choice was unavailable I would buy CAB.

For several reasons (some, admittedly, idiosyncratic) I am not a fan of injected meats--usually. Of course, were I competing, I'd likely have to pitch my idiosyncrasies out the window and play to the judges so who knows what I'd do in that situation. I know Jim has worked with injections for brisket, notably with FAB, but I don't know if he's competing with them. Jim?
 
I have cooked from selects to primes and Kobes in competition. I have gotten on stage with selects to primes, overall CABs have been very good to me, some very good finishes in the Royal twice.

I have used injections and they can help but personelly I like the results with marinades very much. Using marinades in conjuction with foil can increase beef flavoring based on the recipe but timing and technique is critical.

Jim
 
TVWB comes thru again. It sure is nice to be able to ask a question and get some straight answers w/o all the BS you get from some of the other bbq sites. Thanks guys.

Kevin, when you say <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the low end of the choice stratum </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm assuming you mean visually. Because other than CAB, choice is choice is choice, right?

Jim, have you posted any of your favorite brisket marinades anywhere? Not necessarily your current competition marinade (I know that's a secret) but one that'll give a guy a place to start. Honestly, I've never marinaded (other than a splash of Worsh) nor foiled any of my briskets. Guess I'm gonna have to break down and give it a shot.

EDIT: Jim, I found some of your marinade advice in the archives, so no need to repost unless you got something new you'd like to share.

Hey Joey, you need some sauce for all of that brisket? I'm thinkin a gallon of Red might come in handy right about now. The best part, it's unbreakable ...
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Rick
 
Bruce - supply house in the southwest suburbs, bouhgt a case, they aged them, froze 'em, i picked 'em up.

Jim & Kevin - like Rick says, outstanding advice. Thanks. Jim - with the lower temp cooking, is it advisable to foil at a point to aid in moisture retention. I'm actuall hoping to explore this this weekend.

Last year i cooked a full range of briskets, select, choice, CAB. The only one i didn't get called with is select. My primes were an accicident. I didn't realize that's what they were giving me until I got there. But with the case price, I think I'll cook these this year. I like Kevin's mention of consistency. For comps, that's what you need to achieve. And although my flavor prints and basic cooking approach was the same for every contest, each brisket was different...i felt like i was trying to hit a moving target. As for injection, i love brisket with no injection, but again when you only have one bite, maybe two to impress the tongue of a judge...you do what you have to. Its my feeling when eating brisket at home, you tend to almost shovel the stuff in your mouth and some injections become a little overpowering. I haven't tried marinading, I'll put that on the list to try, but its getting late enough that I feel I've got to work on basic cooking approach more. Can't be throwing too many variables into the mix at a tiime.

Finally Rick - got plenty of sauce, that's for sure!! My brisket finishing sauce takes a slightly different direction...sort of meatier.
 
Joe
I normally don't foil until the flat hits 190º internal, then it goes into a dry cooler for a few hours.
When using marinade I foil and add marinade at 170º internal. Goes back on cooker till it hits 190º. Add another layer of foil and into the dry cooler. It is very important that the brisket comes off the cooker at the 190 or little earlier, if you let it go higher than 190 on the cooker you can lose the texture to pot roast very quickly.
Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kevin, when you say
quote:
the low end of the choice stratum
I'm assuming you mean visually. Because other than CAB, choice is choice is choice, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well--no.

Nutshell beef grading procedure: There are two factors that determine grade. The first is the maturity (approximate age) of the animal, the second is the marbling. Age is determined first by looking at the bone of the carcass (changes in bone color and shape/size), the cartilage (the presence of cartilage along the backbone which changes to bone in an age-predictable pattern from rump to withers), and the color and texture of the rib-eye (inspected at the 12th rib cross-section, younger animals have more finely grained lean tissue and the color is more pinky-red; as the animal matures the tissue becomes progressively coarser and the color darkens). Prime-graded beef must be young.

Marbling is also determined by visual inspection of the rib-eye. Substantial marbling ( called 'slightly abundant' (SA) by the National Cattlemen's Beef Association) is essential for a prime designation but note that the SA point has to be combined with a young maturity designation to result in the label of Prime. All the marbling in the world with a carcass from an older animal will not result in a prime label. Hence, the statum is narrow.

[Without going into lots of detail on the maturity the age of an young animal might be 9-30 months and called 'A'; 30-42 months, 'B'; 42-72 months, 'C'; 72-96 months, 'D'; more than 96 months, 'E']

A prime designation is an A maturity with SA marbling.

Choice, on the other hand, has three strata (or more depending on how you mentally make the divisions). A beef can have a maturity of A, B, C, D or E. Next, there are three marbling catagories that might result in a choice label: Moderate, Modest and Small. (If associated with the right maturity--as the animal ages the possible 'choice' designation becomes more restricted.) So, a young (maturity 'A') beef that had moderate marbling would be labeled choice--but so would an 'A' beef with a marbling rating of small, and so would a 'B' beef with modest marbling, and a 'C' with moderate, or an 'A' with small.

That's what I meant when I said 'the low end of the choice stratum'. (I hope the above makes sense!) And that's why, in the absence of reliable choice I'd consider CAB--it comes from the upper levels of the choice grade. Knowing your supplier--and by that I mean the source your retailer/wholesaler purchases from--can be very helpful. If he has a good relationship with his source (or, better, the plant directly) he can specify a higher level of choice. If this is not possible or if the choice products you buy are inconsistent then CAB might be the way to go as it is a more consistent product. So is prime.

Important note: Grading of beef has to do with the expected palatability of the cuts once cooked. It is not a guarantee. Choice of method, technique, and timing--whether it's rib-eye on the grill, a brisket in the smoker, or a rump roast in the braising pot--are always the determining factors of results. The grade gives you a starting point from which to make decisions.
 
WOW!!!! You'd think a country boy would know this stuff.
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I had to read it twice, but I finally understand.

OK, two more questions and I'll give Joey back his thread.
Kevin, so far all of my whole packers have come from Sam's. Am I correct to assume that there could be 3 or 4 different rated briskets (A/small, B/modest, C/moderate) in a single case beings they are all choice cuts?

Jim, with your marinade/foil version of cooking brisket I got the part about the adding the marinade and foiling at the 170 mark. What I was wondering is how much marinade do you usually add at that point and do you also marinade prior to cooking?

Thanks for the Brisket 101 guys! I'm printing this whole thread out so I won't have to ask again.

Rick
 
I second Rick's thanks, and I have also printed this thread out. This info is really helpful, I am starting to think that I may begin to understand all all of this.

BBq has always been a favorite of mine, but never really got into doing it myself, over the last year having a buddy that started using a WSM and then getting one for myself, it is starting to become an obession. It seems like I am smoking some kinda meat every week. And in between I can't wait to do it again.

Once again, thanks for all the help from everyone on this forum.
 
Hey Rick - Lets get one thing clear, this isn't my thread alone! Some thoughtfull questions on your part has led to a pretty good reference guide. And, I'm not a country boy (wish i was), but I too had to read Kevin's beef grading bit twice, maybe more.

Got two of those packers thawing to go out on the smoker on Friday night. Will keep 'em nice and low, and see what happens.

Joey Mac
 
Actually, Rick, in the country everyone just eats! The grade is immaterial.

Seriously, I buy the majority of my beef from a local butcher or get it from ranching friends. It is all no-roll (i.e., ungraded) meat. And I get some really fine meat.

The feds inspect meat gratis but grading (both quality grading, what we've been discussing, and yield grading, a grade that predicts amount of useable lean from a carcass) are services paid for by the processors.

I don't want anyone to think that a prime brisket is essential for turning out a great product at home or at comps. As I stressed above, it is a combination of cut and all the elements of technique that will get you where you want to go. Jim Minion's calls on selects is testament to that. And I daresay there has probably been more than a few who have cooked primes in comps and have not been called to the stage. However, were I to compete, anything I could do to further the possibility of replicative results I would consider. Checking the price differential would be where I'd start.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Am I correct to assume that there could be 3 or 4 different rated briskets (A/small, B/modest, C/moderate) in a single case beings they are all choice cuts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes and could is operative here. Generally, the choice meats for retail are going to be upper-end-B/SA, A/Moderate, B/Moderate, A/Modest, B/Modest, and A/Small but C maturity can end up in there. You might very well get a case where the differences between cuts are vanishingly small and you might not. Big box retailers and most supermarkets do not buy prime. Prime is reserved for high-end retailers and restaurants. The upshot: The majority of prime purchasers are restaurants. The majority of those restaurants buy steaks only. So, there remains the rest of the carcass and if anyone can get it the restaurant suppliers can. Prices for prime cuts not currently in demand can be lower than you'd expect but you might have to do some calling around. (If you locate a source and the price is reasonable ask about the case price on chuck top blade. Cut correctly, it's from this cut you get my favorite (after rib-eye) steak--the flat iron. Though vogue in some markets the price is still quite reasonable for a great tasting steak.)

I finally found the chart I was looking for yesterday. This chart illustrates the above. The A-E across the top are the maturity levels I noted upthread.

I know this is all a lot of info that might not be useful to many--after all, it still comes down to the cook's skill--but I find this sort of info interesting. And I'm one that likes lots of info. I figure I'd rather sift out what's unimportant later.
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There is a grade called COB which is Choice or Better. I often save the nice ones in the chest freezer for contests. A case of Kobe is 2 Briskets and the price is less than Costco Hamburger in these parts. There was this one contest at Lake Tahoe. I stopped on the way and bought a few choice Briskets from Cash & Carry. Another well known cook was bragging about getting Prime Briskets in Oregon. We walked away with the first place trophy cooking against a lot of respected cooks.

These days we cater with Chuck roll so I don't have a good selection of Choice to cherry pick. With easy and cheap availability I use Kobe.

Competition is getting tougher as more knowledge and technology is being used along with higher quality meat.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There is a grade called COB which is Choice or Better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Or, in the vernacular in some areas, Top of Choice. In my experience, a relationship with a good butcher with access-- or with the better restaurant meat suppliers--can work wonders in terms of consistency of product. Ask for availability and case pricing on prime and the better choice grades. The best suppliers cater to discriminating chefs. They usually have better access and are more nimble and knowledgeable than the big corporate buyers who are purchasing under completely different criteria.
 
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