Controversial Statements


 
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Jim Langford

TVWBB Fan
Friends,

The following statements were posted on a Yahoo barbecue club message board that I subscribe to. Some of what is said makes sense to me, but a couple of the opinions expressed (particularly the crticism of water pans) seem a bit dogmatic, to say the least. I thought I'd post it here and see what you think:

#1
"Smoke blowers need to comprehend that a little smoke applied over 10-12 hours accumulates to an excess. There are only two fuels for properly barbecuing a brisket: wood coals and charcoal. Flaming wood produces tars, phenols, cresols and other noxious products. For a century, until EPA banned it, cresol was the active ingredient in sheep dip. It is my studied opinion that anyone who can tolerate to eat over smoked meat probably has some sheep herder in his ancestry. Only confirmed Lysol freaks would enjoy the phenol flavor. Both cresols and phenols are known carcinogens."

#2
"Did you say, "What about the water pan?" Tell me that you are joking! A water pan in a closed grill is, at a minimum, a gross waste of fuel. It takes more heat to boil a gallon of water than it does to cook a 10 lb. roast to 185 degrees. And what do you get in return, "Nothing of value." The water pan was introduced by manufacturers of dinky little tin can cookers, without air flow control, as a means of controlling the temperature. As long as there is water in the pan, the temperature will not exceed the boiling point of water. It is only useful for those who cannot control the temperature of their grill. Grilling is cooking meat in dry heat. Water has no place in grilling."

#3
"We may as well discuss that other grilling abomination, aluminum foil. Anybody who cooks his brisket wrapped in aluminum foil, probably puts catsup on his steak. - after he has cooked it ‘well done'! At barbecue cook-offs in other parts of the country, aluminum foil is known as the ‘Texas crutch.' Aluminum foil is a crutch for those who over smoke and over cook at temperatures too high. By hermetically sealing the damaged goods in aluminum foil, the abused brisket is braised (cooked enclosed with moisture) to try to retain moisture and tenderness. Is this grilling? Certainly not! What, other than the thickness of the container, is the difference in heavy duty aluminum foil and a pressure cooker.

This bit of chicanery is now euphemized among its practitioners as ‘steeping.' Maybe they should call it ‘Texas tea" and bring out the doilies and crumpets! To the experienced taster, braised brisket has the same texture as pot roast and loses much of its natural flavor. I find nothing wrong, however, with a back yard barbecuer wrapping his completely cooked brisket in aluminum foil to hold it until serving time."

quoted from: "Building a Better Brisket"
by C. Clark "Smoky" Hale

Regards from sunny Spain,

Mr Squeaky
 
As far as wood smoking, what about when people use offset wood-burning smokers such as Klose Pits etc.?

You might add some coals to begin with to get your wood burning, but the addition of wood and smoke is an ongoing process for the entire cooking period. Usually you have to add a log every 1-2 hours to maintain temperature. This would always create a bit of smoke which is exactly how the smokers are supposed to work.

To say that you should only be smoking your meat with white coals is rediculous when using offset smokers. I have never heard of any offset smoker users complaining about cresol or phenols or creosote unless they have chosen to partially close the exhaust vent. Most people that use offset smokers know to always keep the exhaust vent wide open and control the heat with the firebox vents and/or addition of wood when needed.

Now, when cooking meat over direct heat such as with regular grills etc, you should wait until the coals are white, but I have used wood chips and chunks for many, many years on my grills and never had any problems. You can't over do it or yes, you will get too much smoke taste (bitter).

Some people say that using green or partially green wood can create these creosote problems. But, I have also talked to several people (ex: Danny Gaulden) who love using green wood or sometimes mix green wood with the seasoned wood. It mainly depends on the characteristics of each type of smoker. Danny turns out some of the best BBQ anywhere, so I don't really take that very serious. Many Klose pit owners say that their pits don't work well with green wood, so it depends on the type of pit. Danny's pit is a big, commercial rotisery type pit.

As far as the water goes, I have heard many pro's and con's about this. There are people who even add water to the bottom of their offset pit, others say it doesn't make any difference. As far as WSM's go, I think the design really does need the water pan to get the desired temp.
 
I agree with Smoky Hale's observations 100%.

As to the smoke issue, the man has cooked on offset smokers for decades and never adds raw wood to his cooker. He preburns his wood to embers in a separate firebox and shovels the coals into the offset as necessary. The traditional pork bar-b-que in the Southeast is cooked in large open pits, also fed with embers from a separate firebox -- never over burning raw wood.

IMO, this whole notion of producing smoke from raw (or soaked) wood is a falacy. The good flavors come from the invisible smoke of burning charcoal or embers. Any smoke that is visible is depositing nasty stuff on your food in the form of a bitter black char.

The most wood that I use for a long cook is a handful of soaked chips or a chunk or two right at the very beginning. That's it. After the first 30 minutes, I don't want to see ANY visible smoke from my cooker. For the most part, the use of raw wood is limited to quick-cooked or grilled items that are on the fire for a very short time and must get their smoke flavor in just a few minutes.

As to water pans: I tend to agree with him as well. Traditional southeast style pork bar-b-q is cooked "low'n slow" in a dry environment. Having said that, the water pan is certainly an effective method of stabilizing temperatures. Personally, I don't like the mess of boiling and condensing gallons of water inside a closed cooker. For that reason, I would prefer to be able to stabilize temperatures without the water.

In reading messages here, I've run across a few people saying that they've found water in bottom of their WSM, even when it hasn't been exposed to rain. My hunch is that this is condensed steam that has run down the sides of the cooker and collected in the ash pan. Water also tends to produce huge sheets of black gunk that fall off the lid of the cooker. This really doesn't happen to any anywhere near this extent without the water.

I also suspect Smoky is right about foil. I think that it is largely used to prevent the nasty burned flavors of cooking for 12 hours with too much smoke. As far as cooking, foil is going to produce a "braised" dish (like a pot roast). Nothing wrong with braising: long slow cooking in a sealed moist environment has been a key cooking technique for centuries. But, I'm not sure it's bar-b-q. You might as well just put your meat in a roasting pan sealed with foil and stick it in the oven like a TV dinner

No question that he is opinionated and some of what he writes certainly goes against the accepted grain of popular bar-b-q wisdom. However, I find Smoky's musings to be born of experience and generally right on the money. A much larger collection of his sermons can be found at:
http://www.barbecuen.com/

Spend a few evenings perusing the "According to Smoky" topics. Then, move on to his "Frequently Asked Questions". There is a goldmine of information in his answers.
 
Here is a very interesting piece of info written by Danny Gaulden. He's been BBQ'in professionally and commercially for over 20 years:

Danny's BBQ
 
That's interesting. But, I think trying to draw distinctions between wood aged 2 months or 2 years is largely an effort to band-aid the real problem: cooking over raw wood instead of embers doesn't taste good.

This is a very disturbing concept. I know it was for me. After all, we've seen all these shelves of chips and chunks in the stores in all flavors from hickory to mesquite. And, we've been led to believe that great billowing clouds belching from our cookers is the key to that delicious "smoky" flavor. Hard as it is to accept something that runs counter to "common-knowledge", the proof is in the eating. That charred black bitter crust just doesn't taste very good and neither does meat that has been hammered with visible smoke for four or five hours or ten hours.

If you want to read Smoky Hale at his curmudgeonly best, try this article on smoke and wood:
http://www.barbecuen.com/burningwood.htm

And this one on green/soaked wood versus dry:
http://www.barbecuen.com/faqs/hickory.htm

For a truly fascinating article on the "real deal" of cooking whole hog bar-b-q try this one:
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/whole_hog.htm

You'll really enjoy this as it has many references to a couple of legendary NC bar-b-q establishments and the way they cook.
 
When I smoke meat, I can distinctly taste the difference of the Hickory, or Apple or Cherry or Oak or Mesquite.
Do you really think you can get the individual taste from different wood imparted into the meat after the wood is only coals?
Seems like once the wood has burned down to coals, the meat will cook fine and get a smoky taste, but you will still be lacking the distinct flavor of each type of wood you use. This is why I am fascinated with smoking meat with different types of wood. I have no problem telling whether my turkey, fish, pork butt or brisket has been smoked with hickory, apple or cherry. They each have their own unique flavor. Maybe my sense of taste is more accute or tuned, but I think it is very noticeable. Granted, as wood gets older, it loses some of its characteristic flavors that distinguish its species.
If you cook meat with burnt down coals from apple wood, can you still taste the apple flavor? Cherry?, Hickory? Or just taste a smoky flavor that is not unique to the type of wood?
 
I know Smoky well and he does have opions,
and IMHO he is wrong at times.
1.You can produce very good food in log burning offsets. Smoky has recommend different brands of offset pits in the past.
Webb you may as well burn lump charcoal and save the local trees, rather than burn down logs to coals and then use them.
2.The cooker he is talking about is not a WSM. A closed cooker with no way to control temp but with the watrpan, what cooker is that?
Grilling is dry cooking and done direct, but aren't we talking about BBQ using indirect methods and the waterpans is the heat deflector and in our case used to also control heat. These statments just do not apply to a WSM. No moisture in BBQ is a not a fact, many cookers and styles of cooking BBQ use a moist enviroment as part of the cook process.
3.I agree that foil changes the texture of brisket and in my opion not always for the best. Smoky likes a brisket to be a certain way, but his way, or my way, or yours the only to cook a brisket.
I use foil when competing because I have till a certin time to get the finish brisket done. If at a point in the cook the brisket is not the point I need it with the time I have, I can use foil as tool to achieve the results I'm looking for. Smoky is right in that if the brisket is bad no amount of foil will help.
I have cooked food that Smoky judged as 9's and I used a waterpan, 6 mo seasoned wood, and may have had to use foil.
Smoky is a good man but his opions are his opions, you get to make your own.
Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Minion:
[qb]
1.You can produce very good food in log burning offsets. Smoky has recommend different brands of offset pits in the past.
Webb you may as well burn lump charcoal and save the local trees, rather than burn down logs to coals and then use them. [/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I'm not mistaken, Smoky's main q-machine is a large Pitts and Spits offset. He has written that he uses the center horizontal section for cooking and the upright section for "holding" food once it's done.

I agree that using lump charcoal or hardwood briquets is probably a more practical solution for most backyard chefs than pre-burning logs. I happen to have a stack of oak for the fireplace, so it's no big deal to use a little for smokewood (or whatever chips and chunks my wife drags home from the bargain shelf at Sam's club), but it's not my main fuel.

BTW, if you read Smoky's complete answers, he's not suggesting to never use raw wood. But, to limit its use to a very small amount relative to the size of the fire and to only use it during the first hour or so of cooking.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[qb]
2.The cooker he is talking about is not a WSM. A closed cooker with no way to control temp but with the watrpan, what cooker is that? [/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, from reading Smoky's sermons, it appears to me that he disdains all bullet smokers, but heaps particular scorn on things like the Brinkmann and NBBQ bullets that lack the effective vent control to the fire chamber.

He generally recommends offset cookers, but acknowledges that the quality of the food has more to do with the cook than the cooker and that great bar-b-q can be produced on just about anything. From what I can tell, the WSM is far and away the best $200 backyard slow cooker available today, both for its relative ease of use and the fact that it will probably be going strong years after the Wal-Mart offsets have disintegrated into a pile of rust. I am a huge fan of Weber's products.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[qb] 3.I agree that foil changes the texture of brisket and in my opion not always for the best. Smoky likes a brisket to be a certain way, but his way, or my way, or yours the only to cook a brisket. [/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, my impression is that Smoky doesn't like brisket period. He thinks it's a horrible cut of beef pawned off on unsuspecting Yankee food writers by Texans looking for a way to export the stuff they don't want!

He strongly prefers a tri-tip sirloin roast for an inexpensive cut of bar-b-q beef.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[qb] Smoky is a good man but his opions are his opions, you get to make your own. [/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, one of the reasons I enjoy Smoky's writing is that many of his opinions match those I've formed over several decades of backyard cooking. I have served many an example of over-smoked food and have formed my own opinion that a little bit of raw wood smoke, early in the cooking, goes a long way. My days of pouring on the wood ended years ago. I can still taste those blackened creosote-encrusted turkeys.

As far as water pans, I think they have their place as a temperature control mechanism. I don't have any particular opinion on what the steam does to the texture of the food because, in my experience, it doesn't make that much difference one way or another once the outside of the meat has sealed. Maybe the little droplets of condensation eliminate some need for basting or mopping, maybe not.

All things being equal in the ability to control temps, I'd just as soon not use steam, but purely on a practical basis -- I don't like the mess inside the cooker. By all means, controlling temps with a water pan is better than not controlling temps at all!

Anyway, I'm not defending Smoky's opinions, other than the fact that his opinions make him an interesting "read" and stimulate the thought processes -- agree or disagree.
 
Dear Webb,
I agree that a little smoke applied over 12 or 14 hours may be too much, however how long do you think 5 or 6 fist size pieces of wood (at most)is going to last? In my experiance the wood is done putting out any appreciable amounts of smoke after about 2 to 3 hours, and if it's flaming you've got air leaks. From that point on I believe that the wood applied at the start is basically charcoal. I don't add more wood and think I would be wasting it if I did. Of course this only applies to the poor people like me who use their sorry little WSM's and not to the pros with their thousand dollar offsets. But I have seen many WSM's at several competitions, so somebody must like what comes out them. Also regarding the water pan I personally find that it is immensely easier to control the temps with it than without it. This means that I don't have hover around the WSM all day and can do some of the other things I like at the same time.
As for the sheets of black stuff in the dome just hose it out before you start your next cook.
I guess the bottom line is to do what works for you and if you like the flavor of what comes out of the smoker then you did good, and if you don't, figure out what's wrong and change it. I've heard this said before but it bears repeating "this isn't rocket science this is queing". Nuff said.
Happy Trails, Don
P.S. I don't like foil except to keep the butts warm for later.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don Hilliard:
[qb]
As for the sheets of black stuff in the dome just hose it out before you start your next cook. Nuff said.
[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! I wish. Where I live north of Boston, I have to shut off all my spigots sometime before Thanksgiving or the pipes will freeze, so even if the spigots weren't buried in a snow bank and even if the water didn't freeze the second it hits the kettle lid, that won't work for me. I don't have access to a useable hose again until sometime in March. That's a lot of bar-b-q'ing.

I'm also real lazy when it comes to cleaning bar-b-q cookers. I wash mine once a year whether it needs it or not. I don't think I've ever washed the INSIDE of a cooker!

PS: foil is also good for storing left-over ribs in the fridge until the next day and reheating them in the oven!
 
There's a section on his site about water smokers. His comments there do not seem consistent with the comments you posted. Perhaps his desire to attract traffic to his site, combined with the obvious success of www.virtualweberbullet, has caused him to (at least on his site) "temper" (I'm being kind) his opinion of "dinky little tin can cookers".
http://www.barbecuen.com/water.htm

I cooked for years on a Brinkman Gourmet, mostly making Brisket. I cook mostly for family, but have done a couple of smaller family/friend parties of up to 40-50 people. My brisket was always a big success. There was never any leftovers as our guests seemed to be able to find the foil and leave with some. People would call all the time and try to wrangle an invite when they heard somebody else had been invited to the next barbecue. And this was in Houston, TX where people know what brisket is supposed to taste like. I have a good friend still there who cooks in a pit made out of loosely stacked concrete blocks. He makes great stuff.

My point is you can make great barbecue with just about anything. Some equipment is easier than others. It is not uncommon for some people with the expensive offset pits to look down on other types of cookers. At times I think this helps them justify the excess cost of these units. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
 
I find this wood discussion rather interesting. I've never cooked on a WSM so I am amazed that you guys can use so LITTLE wood.

My offset smooker uses 1 and a half trees during a 15 hour session.
 
LOL....that's nothing, you should see how little amount of wood a Cookshack smoker uses. 4-12 oz. of wood per load depending on what type of meat and how much. That's equivalent to about 1 fist-size piece of wood per session (or less). The Cookshack is insulated so well, no water is needed either.
You just run the Polder probe through the little smoke hole on top of the smoker. There is a nice flat surface to place the thermometer on. Wind and temperature don't affect the Cookshack either.
The main drawback is the high cost. Also, you can't open the door to mop or baste because it releases the heat and smoke and takes about 30 minutes to replace. Also, the racks are only 14" x 14" which is too small to comfortably smoke brisket. You have to fold the flat end underneath the rest of it. I don't like doing this.
It is pretty much a set and forget with the thermostat controlling the temp. With the Polder all set, you are good to go. Everything has turned out great. You can load the smoker at night and go to bed, or go to work.

But, I love my 2 WSM's and I know I will love my Klose Pit.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kyhogfarmer:
[qb]I find this wood discussion rather interesting. I've never cooked on a WSM so I am amazed that you guys can use so LITTLE wood.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what makes a well-designed bullet smoker so effective. The things are amazingly fuel efficient, generating all the heat you need with 10 or 20 lit briquettes. With that little fuel burning, of course you need to use correspondingly less wood for smoke or you'd need a gas mask to turn your food.

One of the objections that "Smoky" has voiced about bullet smokers is that the design encourages people to go overboard and use too much smoke wood relative to the size of the fire and the size of the cooker.
 
Hello Webb,

I guess this discussion comes down to what is considered to be "true barbeque" and what isn't. I guess like everything else barbeque has its purists. Under certain guidelines cooking on the WSM isn't barbeque. These guidelines, like so many other aspects of barbeque (the whole sauce issue is pretty funny, foil or no foil, regional styles, etc.) are based not as much on facts, but rather opinions. This gentleman seems to have some very strong opinions, which he is entitled to. I would like to point out a couple of issues. Primarily, as Jim Minion has stated, the WSM has excelled at the professional level. Basically, this man, as well as other judges are not judging any less for food cooked on a WSM as compared to the big boys. Perhaps they cannot tell the difference! Secondly and more importantly, we are all having a great deal of fun with our WSMs. I just did two racks of ribs and a whole chicken on Friday, and it was absolutely fabulous. My friends raved about the food, and wanted to know how I cooked it.
I used hickory and apple wood and kingsford, and the final product was by far my best ever. That's why I keep coming back! The advice on this board is excellent, and the people here seem to have open minds about how to create excellent barbeque. The purists may scoff, and I say let them! As long as your friends and neighbors, the judges, and your stomach keep cheering, you'll be fine.

Derek
 
Boy, Smoky really can generate some interesting discussions! I have never met him but would love to spend a day with him at the pit. I have always enjoyed Smoky's writings and his website as it was the first that I visited when I first got interested in BBQ 5 - 6 years ago. Last year, I bought his latest book which is a great read as it is informative and humorous.

Having lived in the Southeast all of my life, I really appreciate his efforts to preserve BBQ's longstanding tradition of cooking over wood coals on open and closed pits. All of the church and volunteer fire department BBQs, 4th of July BBQs, New Years BBQs that I have been too, men (me included) start cooking whole pigs at 3:00 am by starting a fire of hickory and oak. Pig doesn't hit the grate until the coals are ready. No temperature gauges for pit temperature, no water, no polder probes in the pig, no soaked wood chips. Just pig, wood coals and a little basting sauce near the end of the cook. Best BBQ (always pork) known to man!

Having said all of that, my cooker and method of choice is the WSM with the water pan full of water using Kingsford and chunks of apple wood! I think that the Boston Butts, ribs, chickens and turkey that I BBQ on this cooker are the best. My family thinks so as well as many friends and extended family. It's less time consuming, less work and lets me enjoy true bbq more often!

Every now and then I burn oak and hickory down to coals and use the WSM, without the water pan, to cook Boston Butts and make what I link to think of as "traditional southern bbq". (One of my detailed posts of this process should be in the archives) It's fun to do when I have the time and I plan on being in the yard a good bit of the day. But, it is more work and more time consuming. Therefore, I wouldn't get to enjoy as much bbq this way, even though I'm lucky to have a good source of free wood.

Sooooo, the only bad bbq is that which is beef, burned or never made at all. Enjoy the WSM for making Real BBQ as it is one of the few items that I own that truly delivers much more value than it cost!

S.C. Que
(South Carolina Q)
 
S.C. Que:

Well stated. I grew up in Augusta, Ga and remember eating many a plate of whole hog Q at various fund-raiser functions. Some Q, some beans, some cornbread, some slaw, and, lordie, lets not forget that (I don't even wanna know what's in it) hash!

BTW, this may be an oxymoron, but do you happen to have a recipe for "good" traditional SC mustard sauce?

My wife loves Piggy Park sauce (hates the restaurant, though). I've tried a half dozen purported recipes and haven't been very happy with any of them. I finally just made one up the other day with a ton of apple cider vinegar that was darned close. But, I figure anyone with the name S.C. Que would know the real McCoy!
 
Webb,

No luck here on the mustard base sauce recipe as I have never been able to come close to Maurice Bessinger's Piggy Park. I still have a local grocer that carries it and I keep a few bottles in the pantry. There is none like it and my family loves it! Would be interested in your recipe if your willing to share.

Augusta, Ga huh? Small world, I used to live in the metropolis of Belvedere, SC (Place seems really run down last time I visited) and went to Clearwater Elementary in the early years. I spent a few semesters as a co-op engineer at Ga. Power's Plant Vogtle Nuclear Plant in the mid 80's and played a lot of golf at Fort Gordon and some course off Wrightsboro(?) Road.

SC Que
 
There is a very good mustard-based sauce sold at our local Wal-Mart, but only in the lawn & garden section grilling area. It is called Okie Joes or Oklahoma Joes. There is a mustard-based sauce and a red sauce. The mustard sauce is very similar to Maurice's sauce.
 
Barry
Sooooo, the only bad bbq is that which is beef
Spoken like a true South Easterner.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
 
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