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Butts over brisket


 
I

Ian G

New member
Doing my second smoke this weekend and my first smoke for a lot of people. The first smoke went really well, I learned a little and found that I really knew a lot from reading this forum. I think my knowledge from this forum will do me well tonight, but I want to bounce this off you all to see if there are some new words of wisdom.

I bought a 17lbs brisket, but trimmed off a piece of the flat for stew (1.5-2lbs). Between that and the fat trimming, I'm guessing I'm around 12-13lbs. I will get a scale this afternoon to confirm. I bought a cryovac with two butts, total pre-trimmed weight was 17lbs. So, after trimming, probably 6.5 lbs each (I should've bought a scale yesterday).

So, the brisket should be 13-20 hours. The butts should be 10-15 hours. Based on cooking charts on this site. I want to serve about 15:00 (or no later than 17:00) tomorrow. Last weekend, I pulled my first brisket and it sat for over two hours and stayed at 160F. Based on this, and providing time for a 'just in case', I was thinking of throwing in the brisket around 23:00 tonight, which would put her at about 12:00-16:00 tomorrow (last brisket took barely over 1hrs/lb). I can hold it for a few hours if it's done quick, or wait to pull if it takes too long. Then I was thinking I'll add the butts around 2:00AM tomorrow morning - moving the brisket to the bottom rack. This should mean they both finish together, based on weight and estimated time per lbs.

But, I've been reading the forums (back a few years, even). There is a ton of information on Butts over Brisket. A lot of people seem to say butts take 16, 18 or even 20 hours. And they seem to be describing 6-7lbs butts. In that case, I would want to start butts even earlier and add my brisket around 12:00 tonight to finish together.

My bigger concern, of course, is meat not finishing in time. BUT, I am not sure I can keep meat hot enough for say, four hours, if it's all done at noon tomorrow. Any tips on cook times or additional tips for holding meat would be appreciated. Last weekend I set my cooler in the sun to warm it up (this works in Florida), put newspaper in the bottom, wrapped brisket in two layers of foil and a towel then put the cooler inside in sunlight coming through the window. It dropped from 190 to 160 during those two
hours - I would think 140 would creep up quick after that.

Sorry so long winded, I'm nervous cooking for 30ppl!!
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-Ian
 
Hello Ian,

I've had luck holding butts and brisket for 4-5 hours with no problem by preheating my cooler with some very hot water for several minutes. Just drain out the cooler, give it a quick wipe down and it will be ready to go. If you have a clean, old, sleeping bag or blanket you don't mind getting some meat juices on, put that on the bottom of the cooler, please your double wrapped meat inside and then pull the top of the sleeping bag over that. Tuck it in for a nice long "nap". I've done this many times and have found that after 4 hours or so the meat is still so hot I can't handle it with bare hands. If you have a family dog, be prepared for him or her to want to sleep on that blanket when you are through.....

With regards to the time to start the cooking, I follow some really good advice I was given a long time ago and that is start your fire and your cooking at least an hour before you think you need to.

Your guests will certainly appreciate the excellent bbq you make them.

Good luck!!!!
 
All those long cook posts are probably mine
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, I'm better now! I think you are overthinking it a bit, not that planning is bad but it's just not like baking cookies .. consistently burn if you don't remove them quick enough. The pork butt will take a lot of abuse befoer it's dry and tough, the brisket won't take as much before it starts to be crumbly but a lot more than cookies will.

If I was doing that cook I'd put them all on by midnight at the latest, maybe an hour or two earlier, I'd let the WSM run about 275F at the top grate.

The thing about getting up, moving the meat then adding another 13lbs of cold meat is that it's gonna drop your WSM temps for a good couple hours, that's if you're quick and the fire doesn't get out of hand.

If the fire gets out of hand I get the feeling you're goin to fight with it to get it back down to 225F, stay up a few hours watching temps, fiddling with vents, and cussing a lot. You'll be cranky the next day and your guests will never come over again. Of wait, that was me!!

It's pointless to cook briskets and butts so low IMO(it's why some of those threads talk about 20 hour cooks).

The meat will hold a good long time all foiled and coolered together with blankets or towels. If I put that much meat in my cooler it would be good for at least 6 hours. Some people throw boiling water in the cooler to warm it up prior to adding the meat.

Go by temp if you're going to foil the brisket say at 160F, then start checking for fork tender after another hour, then maybe every half hour. If not foiling I'd start checking for fork tender by about 1100hrs.
 
Good advice Shawn, I agree that trying to put the meat on at different times will only cause chaos with temps. I would light the fire at 10pm that way you can have everything settled in and rolling along while its still early enough to get some decent shut eye.

Brandon
 
couple other things, if you're foiling the brisket or butts, once they are foiled they can go in the oven just as well as back on the WSM, this can come in handy ... say, you want to foil the brisket but not the butts you can put it in the oven where it's easier to check for done and the checking won't affect your pork butts still on the WSM

about the 'fork tender', it's described as feeling like pushing a fork into room temp butter ... with serving time in mind, if it's getting close to done but will be held in the cooler for several hours, take it off a little sooner, when it's almost there because residual heat will keep working on it for a while in the cooler ... getting a feel for that sort of thing comes with practice
 
And, we're off! I put everything in about 10:30PM. Opened all three bottom vents and temp soared over 250 in about 20 minutes. I think I'm dialed-in to 250 now. Gonna check soon, then get a couple hours sleep.

Butts on top. Brisket on bottom fat-side up. There seems to be a lot of debate about this, but my first smoke was fat up and it turned out amazing. Don't fix if it ain't broken! Rookie maneuver, I left the top vent closed for first 45 minutes. Usually I do a 'mock run' (step through everything while it's still cold), but felt rushed tonight. My Dad always says, if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning anything. I learned something tonight: always do a 'mock run'!!!

-Ian

[Edit] Thanks for the tips, guys. I decided to heed your advice and get sleep. Plus I don't have to worry about food not being ready on time. I _will_ be less cranky tomorrow.
 
Funny that I did pretty much the exact same cook the weekend before. I too had the same dinner time. I also had pretty similar sized stuff.

My Smoker tends to purr between 225-230 (no matter what I do). I still MM the coals and in Denver so all vents stayed wide open for me.

I got everything on about 2 hours before you.


I foiled for the last 2 hours (only because I was pressed for time)and if I had to do it again would have foiled a little earlier (the tenderness and temps weren't quite there) I also smoked beans for the last 3 hours so this may have affected the cook. The cook before this one everything finished early and had to rest for 2/3 hours.

I use the same storage system (cooler w/ newspaper in the bottom and it maintains great temps for 4-5 hours)

My pork is about 2-2.5 hrs/lb and brisket consistently 1-1.5 / lb. I also have had luck pushing the Pork to the limits and have great success with its flexibility.

My only suggestion is to let it rest at the end. I kind of rushed pulling 1 pork butt (resting time) it was good but the second one just melted and was one of my best. Have a beer or two with everyone while the meat rests (they should be lathered up from the smell alone). The reults are worth the wait.

I agree the web site has been tremendous in information.
 
Half the fun of BBQ is getting the guests "lathered up" IMO. They know they are in for a treat, and a little wait just gets them more excited
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If they start getting impatient, just tell them that waiting is part of the magic of bbq, and hand them another beer
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Always works for me.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My Smoker tends to purr between 225-230 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>have you tried not using water? if you are having trouble getting to temp ditch the heat sink (water), it isn't necessary

use a clay saucer, a foiled water pan (with foil balls in it) or sand (covered with foil)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shawn W:

If the fire gets out of hand I get the feeling you're goin to fight with it to get it back down to 225F, stay up a few hours watching temps, fiddling with vents, and cussing a lot. You'll be cranky the next day and your guests will never come over again. Of wait, that was me!!

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is me now...I woke up at 4:20 to check it and found temps down to 200. That's ok, I sorta expected it. Honestly, 200 is better than 300 for me and I got 3 hours sleep in the meantime. Unfortunately, I checked the water level by opening the side door. This sent temp down to 175.
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I haven't had this problem when checking water level before, so I thought it'd be ok. The temp is 44F outside, so that's probably why. I'm at 100% vents now. Hoping it will be corrected now and I can get 2 more hours sleep.

-Ian
 
Thanks, Greg. Your post actually had me a little worried at first, but now I've rethought it and I think it'll help. I'm gonna make sure I stay at 250 (once I hit it again). Hopefully, I will be getting the meat done around 12:00-13:00. My thinking was to stay around 225 until sunrise before getting up to 250. This will give me a couple hours' head start on that. Based on yours, and others' comments, I'm confident that throwing 20+ lbs of meat into a cooler will stay hot for many hours.

More results to come...

-Ian
 
Reading you guys play by play is more fun than the Super Bowl! Got any pictures? No pictures, it didn’t happen!
 
Ian,

When you open the side door, you will lose some heat and see the temps go down but it will come back quickly once you close the door. Don't forget also that by opening the door, you are letting more air get at the coals so they get a little stoked up and come back quickly.

One thing to think about is to do your brisket fat side down next time when doing it on the bottom grate. Helps to protect the meat a little more from the heat.

Sounds like you are going good. Good luck and can't wait to hear how it all comes out.

Bob
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Reading you guys play by play is more fun than the Super Bowl! Got any pictures? No pictures, it didn’t happen! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah Madden circling parts of the bbq.

(in Madden voice) You've got to pick your formation. Butts over butts. Butts next to butts. Brisket over brisket. Butts over brisket. Butts next to butts over brisket. Now take this guy here. Once you pick the formation is it a flat? Does it have a cap? Is it wrapped in bacon? Fat side up? Fat side down? High heat or low heat like he did in 08? When you think bbq...


Bermanisms for BBQ

LOOK..at 'em go!

And he could....go....all...the...way.

Tick tick tick tick....whhhooop.

No one circles the wagons...

Ian,
The one thing we do know is that you should sleep well tonight
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Keep on keepin on
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Keep on keepin on </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didn't Joe Dirt say that?
Sounds like a fun cook and looks like you pretty much have things under control, nice job, where are the pics
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I'm about to pull it all now. I let it sit low and slow (225-250) this morning and was aiming for a 13:00 end time. Pretty darn close. I know it's just dumb luck, though. I'll let you all know, and try to get pics. It looks damn good - the bones in the butts are falling out before I even touch them....

-Ian
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brandon A:
And the verdict is...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely amazing!!! I really couldn't have done it without this board. The support around here is fantastic. Nobody could believe I made the meat.

The brisket was far better than my small one last week. There was a layer of fat running through the middle of it that I wasn't expecting. I'll have to look at the 'virtual brisket' again to understand. At any rate, this made the brisket fantastic. That, and it was on lower rack so right above water and below the dripping pork. I chopped a bunch in addition to just slicing and I think I prefer the chopped.

I pulled the pork and this was very easy. Though, a little hot. Used normal latex gloves (food grade, of course), not the insulated kind. Meat was in high 160s when I took it from cooler and began pulling it. Didn't burn me and was easy enough to do. Bark on this was incredible! And extremely tender. Dogs loved the bones.

So, about 14-15 hours in the smoker. Temps stayed around 225-250 mostly, though there were some periods early on in the 275 range. Put in the cooler and held for at least 4 hours and stayed over 165 (don't remember exact numbers). I will definitely smoke overnight again. I was a little tired just before the guests arrived, but once everyone was here I had no problems staying awake.

I am definitely addicted to smoking now. Thanks again everybody.

-Ian
 
Good to hear Ian, I almost forgot I was waiting for an outcome. One thing that just came to mind, about the butt bark. I like to take all the big hunks out and set them aside while pulling the pork. Then I chop all the bark up and put it back into the pulled pork. This makes sure you get plenty of tasty bark in every bite of the pulled pork. Give it a try. Oh, and welcome to the addiction
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