2nd Brisket this Weekend Questions

[Erik G]

After 6 hours of smoking a 13 lb brisket, I have reached the 180 mark. I must say, I am yet again disappointed. After opening the lid to do the fork test, the temps. at the lid climbed to 275. I put my polder probe an inch below the grate to check what the hell is going on and it read 340 degrees. Explain how that happens with all the vents closed. The last thing I want to do at 5:30 in the morning is the damn fork test to see if the meat is finished for dinner at 7pm. I would love to see how far I can toss that clay saucer and use it as a frisbee. I will now be using water in the pan and checking temps. at the grate for future cooks, no more using lid temps.

Erik

 

[K Kruger]

Originally posted by LarryR:

Maybe some people just aren't meant to make great brisket.

<span class="ev_code_RED">I don't believe that for a second. (Neither do you.)</span>

Here are my thoughts:
1) Should have pulled her when I did that turn. Instead, I kept her on almost another 2 hours. What threw me was my probe was at 181. Much like my steaks and tris, I need to learn to "feel" when she's done and use a probe as a backup.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Yes. Tender is tender; done is done. Cooking further means cooking past done. I don't temp at all (because I do briskets at high heat and temps are meaningless); if you want to perfect the low/slow approach then learn to use temps as a guide only--not a back-up. Feel will tell you DONE; temps won't, but they can indicate a point to start checking. Well-marbled higher grade briskets usually need to be checked sooner as 'done' is often realized at a lower internal. (Much depends on thickness here as well.)</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">You are not the first one to be fooled by a temp. Many latch on to temp as being the be-all end-all of determining done--but it isn't. The only time temp determines done is when cooking, say, a steak to med-rare, or for food safety purposes--chicken breast to 160, pork tenderloin to 140, that sort of thing. </span>

2) Fat down vs. up. I think if there's a next time brisket for me, I'll do fat side down. I'll take the fat I trim and lay it on the non-fat side to get the benefits of the fatty juices.

<span class="ev_code_RED">There is little benefit to doing so. Though what little fat renders might slow juice evaporation, they will not soak into the meat or anything like that. Further, covering the meaty side of the brisket only lessens caramelization of the rub and meat surfaces and deters smoke adsorption. Keeping juices in meat means not overcooking--and that means either not cooking past 'done', or not cooking too slowly.</span>

If you look closely at the pictures of the slices you can see little cracks. I believe these were caused due to the non-fat side drying out from being near the heat source.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Yes, possibly. Little cracks can form due to the rub drying as well. But if the brisket is not overcooked they do not end up dry.</span>

I'm open to any and all suggestions, I'd really like to get a brisket right, maybe next time. Maybe a high temp. cook next time.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Do try a high heat cook--next time or another time and see what you think. Remember, though: internal temps can be all over the place with a high temp cook--don't use internals for anything after foiling (I don't even foil by temp; I foil by time). Don't even turn the probe on. Just use it for feel.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">You done just fine Larry. </span>

 

[K Kruger]

Originally posted by Erik G:
After opening the lid to do the fork test, the temps. at the lid climbed to 275. I put my polder probe an inch below the grate to check what the hell is going on and it read 340 degrees. Explain how that happens with all the vents closed. I will now be using water in the pan and checking temps. at the grate for future cooks, no more using lid temps.

Erik

Perhaps a leak from the bottom-middle joint? Not sure as I am yet unfamiliar with the clay saucer thing. I use water for low/slows (and only monitor lid temps). I do briskets now with high heat--and still only monitor lid temps.

Meat done really early can be a PITA but as long as you don't overcook it can be dealt with successfully.

 

[LarryR]

Eric, sounds like your WSM runs like mine but even hotter. However, I usually do not have any problem getting the temp back down after having he lid off for a minute or two. One thing I do prior to taking the lid off (don’t know if it helps or not) I close all my vents and then adjust once lid is back on and temps are stable again. I very rarely remove the lid though, maybe once or twice a cook.

I don’t know how the hell you got your grate to 340, last week when I was doing my turkey I couldn’t get her that hot without propping the door open . . . and that was with all vents at 100% open.

I’ve monitored my grate temp and lid simultaneously and found “my” grate runs on average 10 – 12 degrees cooler than the lid. However, others have reported that when using clay saucer their grate temp does run hotter than their lid temp. I usually monitor at grate, don’t know why I did lid for this cook, but I’m confident in my case I’m about 10 degrees cooler at grate. In fact, after pulling my brisket I threw a fatty on and laid the meat probe on the grate as I didn’t want to un-thread through my eyelet while it was hot; I put the smoker probe at the lid and temps were about 10 degrees off between the two.

Regarding the clay saucer, I rarely (even in 100 degree temps.) have issues getting my temps down to the 230 (lid) and maintaining them for hours. Even in this cook, I’m sure if had wanted to work at it at 12:30 a.m. I could have taken her down from 250 to the 230 range but I felt for my cook I could deal with 250 lid. My mistake was not taking her off sooner. Also, in retrospect, I feel if I would have started with my standard amount of coals I probably would have been pinned at 225 – 230. Just overcompensated for the cold with I don’t feel was necessary.

Sorry to say this but after reading your post(s) I’m starting to feel a little bit better about my cook. At least I got a full nights sleep and wasn’t fighting temps. I hope everything turns out for your dinner. It should be cool here today, maybe brisket chili with cornbread.

quote:
Originally posted by K Kruger: I don't believe that for a second. (Neither do you.)

Kevin, you’re absolutely right, that comment was bit of bruised ego and a bit of the Makers Mark speaking. In fact, this morning I thought about going to Smart & Final and picking up another brisket to try again next weekend, high-temp like you and Rich have suggested. I’m not going to let this brisket beat me, I will master the brisket damn it! I think with a couple minor tweaks this cook could have turned out great! Fat side down and pulling about two hours earlier, that’s what made the difference. I’ll let you know if I pick-up a brisket for next weekend. I’m sure I can find the instructions for the high-temp cook on here somewhere, be assured, you’ll see a thread popping up with this title, “First High Temp Brisket Questions.” LOL, the knowledge and access to experience here is just to great not to tap into. And as always, I’ll pay it forward. Oh, Kevin, one last thing. Remember that Chipotle pasta salad you helped me tweak? Made last night and it turned out great! Perfect blend of spice and “cool ranch,” lot’s of great veggies, great color just an overall excellent twist on pasta salad. Also did lemon pepper spaghetti squash with a touch of honey. It too was great.

In the meantime, off to make left over brisket Machaca for my son and I. SO took off to the Radier’s vs. Denver game, man will she be missing out! Should be awesome with the leftover brisket!!!

 

[r benash]

Larry - Can't thank you enough for tracking your progress with the overnight brisket. The comments and dialog it created were very helpful to me. I want to give brisket a shot over the winter. Still can't decide on high temp or low temp cook yet. Anxious to see how you make out on your high temp brisket as comparison.

Learned a lot from your post and all the comments it genereated.

Ray
WSM
Weber Performer
CG PRO SFB

 

[Paul K]

Larry,

We've all had cooks that didn't meet our expectations; that's the learning curve. Keri wrote an excellent piece that described a "jiggle" to the meat when the brisket was ready. Give it a little poke, and it will jiggle when it's done. As you've read, you can't go by temps, but that jiggle look/feel has worked well for me.

 

[J Reyes]

Larry, I was at the game today also.

My notes/thoughts on brisket cooking.

Select the best cut of meat that you can (Superior choice, etc.) or best brisket that can be purchased. Select a brisket with a thick flat with good marbling.

Aged more than 10 days after kill date (which may be noted on the label or ask butcher) is preferable. It can also be aged in your frig if it is still in the original cryo pack.

Aged Beef

Trim off hard fat. Trim fat at point to 1/8 inch for burnt ends or leave fat on.

Optionally use a wet rub as follows:
Mix beef bullion cubes and Worchester sauce.
8 cubes and 1 tabls worchester per brisket.

Then apply your preferred rub.

Get the WSM to 325 or so and add meat and smoke wood, fat down.

Bring meat to 160 to 165 and foil wrap with meat side down (also try fat down and compare results). Adding a little liquid and flavor (ex. red wine, chopped garlic, and onions) is optional.

Begin checking about an hour later for fork tender and every 20 min to half hour thereafter.

When fork tender rest at least one hour.

Separate point and slice flat against the grain. The tenderest meat on the flat should be right under the point. Serve this to those you want to impress the most.

With juice in foil you can use a fat separator to remove the fat and keep the defatted juice "au jus" as a dipping sauce.

Optionally you can slice the point or make burnt ends by putting the point back on the WSM with point up, fat down.

It would be unusual to cook a perfect brisket without a few tries. I'm sure you'll get it down pat after a few cooks. At first, don't sweat the rubs and liquids, focus on just getting down the cooking process then you can experiment with the rubs, etc.

John

 

[Erik G]

Larry, wasn't that brisket incredible? I am not talking about the taste but rather the quality of the meat. That had to be a high choice graded meat. Great marbling with copious amounts of fat. I have never had brisket with soooo much fat. After trimming a couple pounds worth, it was still incredibly fatty after completing the smoke. I have noticed with brisket that it is very difficult to remove the fat (especially compared to for example pulled pork) after cooking it. You have to really cut if off the meat with a knife and use some muscle to pull it off. WIth pork butt it seems much easier and you do not have to use a knife.

Well, my brisket was far from perfect. THe point was actually very good. Nice flavor and very moist. It was very pullable. The flat was quite the opposite. It was dry, did not have much flavor and honestly, I was embarrassed by it. When serving it to my friends, I would purposedly drench it with bbq sauce hopeing to mask the dryness. HOnestly, while eating the brisket, I was thinking about tri tip. Weird huh?

I used about 6 chunks of kiln dried oak wood and 2 chunks of kiln dried maple wood and still could not taste that smoke flavor. Larry, what kind of wood and how much did you use? I am thinking about changing the menu for our Christmas dinner. I might just revert back to standing rib roast but this time I will probably buy it from Smart n Final.

Erik

 

[LarryR]

Erik, yes a very nice piece of meat, and at a super price! I did notice the Smart and Final also had Choice prime rib on sale for $6.99 or was it $7.99.

I used about 3 chunks of red oak and 3 chunks of hickory. About the perfect amount of smoke for our tastes.