j besinger - Question on the Ginger Scallion Noodles


 

Clint

TVWBB Olympian
Hi jeff, a friend tried making these from momofuku and has a question - here she is:

Hey,so we couldn't find the dry sodium and potassium carbonate. All we could find was this liquid suspension with these salts already disolved. So we didn't know how much of the liquid was equal to the dry amount that they called for in the recipe. Any thoughts?
 
I believe it calls for 1 1 /3 cup (300 grams) of water & 5 1/3 cups (800 grams) bread flour or "OO" pasta flour.
 
I'd go with 5cc kansui liquid for each 200g flour. That would be about 4 tsp kansui liquid. You could reduce the water by the same - but I doubt it would matter much if you didn't.
 
The recipe calls for 5 1/3 cups of flour, 1 1/3 cups water, 2 teaspoons of sodium carbonate and 1/4 teaspoons of potassium carbonate. We couldn't find the dry versions of these salts, so we got a liquid version. It's called Koon Chun Potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate solution. We used 2 tbs of this stuff (and cut the water by 2 tbs) and the noodles ended up sticky/mooshy with a funny aftertaste.

(~Michelle)
 
The amount I noted above is sort of a 'standard' conversion. It's significantly less than what you used (2 T vs 4 t is 33% less). I've not made Chang's recipe but have also used a simple 1/2 t kansui liquid/cup flour with good results (for your recipe 2.65 t or just a drop or two over 2.5 t).

Try less, using one amount or the other.
 
I have not attempted to make the actual noodles yet. But on Kevin's advice, I did purchase the alkaline liquid when I ran across it at an asian market. One of these days, I was going to ask him how to use it. Sorry I couldn't help you, but thanks for asking, now I know too
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if you have not made the g/s sauce yet, I can give you some advice: add the salt to the ginger and scallions and let it sit for some time to draw out liquid. Its not really saucy if you fail to do this.
 
Question, as I am trying to do the J. Besinger thing AFA breaking down this recipe from Momofuku.

1. I find it curious that there are specific ingredients specified by chemical name and how that was integrated into something that came from simple Chinese cooking over time. \

Just seems weird that we have a ramen noodle recipe that is traditional Chinese for something so basic. Makes one wonder what the home cooks in China are doing and if they are adding these specific ingredients. Or is it something that the noodle houses do vs home cooks?

2. I can find Potassium Carbonate for $5 a lb. Ia this not = to potash or alum??

3. Sodium Carbonate = baking powder, so not much of a search there, correct? Unless I'm trying to save on shipping on the Potassium Carbonate.

Is there some common name for Potassium Carbonate that is eluding me, I.E. - is this something I can or should expect to find locally rather than placing a special order?
 
1. Ages ago it was discovered that the key to some noodles' texture/color was the use of rather alkaline water, locally sourced. From there the inclusion of agents to foster alkalinity became the norm.

2. Potassium carbonate makes up the bulk of potash but potash is not refined. So little is used I would not think it would be worth buying in bulk.

3. Correct.

No, no special name. However you can find the liquid, premixed ingredients at many Asian markets. Or you can purchase it on line. It's cheap, and unless you're constantly making noodles that require it (many do not) I don't see the need for sourcing bulk dry ingredients. Your choice though.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by j biesinger:
if you have not made the g/s sauce yet, I can give you some advice: add the salt to the ginger and scallions and let it sit for some time to draw out liquid. Its not really saucy if you fail to do this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the tip. Planing on making this sauce in the near future.
Cheers!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. Ages ago it was discovered that the key to some noodles' texture/color was the use of rather alkaline water, locally sourced. From there the inclusion of agents to foster alkalinity became the norm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

not unlike the story of using nitrate to cure meats.

Harold McGee breaks down the use of alkaline ingredients in noodle making in the first issue of Lucky Peach. There's also a recipe that uses baked baking powder. I could scan it for you Ray.
 
H-Mart in Upper Darby (69th st) should have the alkaline water. So will just have to figure out the adjustment to the recipe AFA quantity, guess that's the point of the original post.

I like that the recipe in Momofuku provides the exact measurements and would have liked to stay with that first time around. Adjusting from a recipe that is foreign (AFA the key ingredients under discussion) first time around is a bit concerning as I want it to come out right first time and be able to freeze some.

Re-read Momofuku.

Going to start with making noodles first.

Made some chitara for a friend over the weekend, thinking about using that (thin side of the chitara) else just use the KA cutter.

McGee books ordered

Going to make some akaline noodles this week hopefully, and start with the ginger scallion recipe from the book. Then work on the other areas to complete the whole momofuku ramen recipe before I visit the restaurant in March for my birthday
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So if I move from using the discrete salts, to convert the recipe just use 300 grams of alkaline water??

Say look/ask for kansui, kangen, alkaline water at H-Mart today? Might run down at lunch time.
 
Ray, I found a bottle by the brand Koon Chun. If you do a Google image search, for kansui it should come up
 
Thanks. Looks like I'll need to run down to Chinatown to see if I can find some. H-Mart didn't have it. Customer service didn't know what I was talking about.

Have upc number now so that can help.

I'd really like to give it a try (making my own ramen noodles).
 
Very quick, got the water within a couple days of ordering. Probably because they are right in NYC.

So to summarize, if I am making the recipe from Momofuku:

300 grams water
800 grams flour
7.2 grams sodium carbonate
.8 gram potassium carbonate

The recommendation is to sub in 2.65t of Kansui water - correct?

In general 5cc to each 200 gram of flour?

BTW, also found this recipe on line from someone who did their own experimenting:

2 cups of bread flour
1/2 cup water
1 teaspoon Kansui water
In the mixer, run for 10 min
Knead into a ball, rest overnight
Cut in have roll out to #3 in the pasta roller
Cut into noodles
 
Wow you all talk above my head right now.

Dont care how they taste aslong as you do em like this!
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The recommendation is to sub in 2.65t of Kansui water - correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Using a typical conversion, yes. I've not made them before. The ones I've made worked with 1/2 t liquid per cup of flour, like the other recipe you note.

Try either or both, making half the volume of each, each way, then seeing what works best.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The recommendation is to sub in 2.65t of Kansui water - correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Using a typical conversion, yes. I've not made them before. The ones I've made worked with 1/2 t liquid per cup of flour, like the other recipe you note.

Try either or both, making half the volume of each, each way, then seeing what works best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin - Yep that's the plan. Probably tomorrow. Lots of other cooking and other chores scheduled today.

Have some roast duck and udon stir fry in the fridge from a stop at Sang Kee in Edgemont. Will be checking the bite/chew with those tomorrow as part of the experiment
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Wolgast - too familiar with how that skill looks. I actually worked for 6-8 years or so at 900 Race St. In Philadelphia in a past life. AKA Chinatown. Used to watch those guys live in the morning while I was in buying Chinese coffee and pastry. Right beside them was a guy chopping duck on a huge block with a cleaver to make the duck rolls for the day.

Don't think I'll get to that method ever. Will be rolling mine out and pushing them through a chiattara (thin side) though, which is pretty cool, but nowhere near the study it takes to do it all by hand.
 

 

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