Rusting Cleaver


 
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Willy T.

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I've got a cleaver I bought a earlier this year.It's made out of high carbon steel.I got a few rust spots on it a while back and can't get them off the cleaver.Seems like if I don't keep oil on the cleaver it wants to rust more.Is there a way to keep this from happening?I caught a tail end of a thread on a mailing list about curing or treating carbon steel cutlery but don't remember what was said.Is there a way to keep the cleaver from getting worse?
Thanks in Advance,
Willy T.
 
Things designed for polishing automotive chrome work pretty well at cleaning high-carbon steel. I've had good success with Mothers Mag and Aluminum polish. Simichrome is another product that works well.

Whether you are comfortable using these products on a food prep utensile is another issue. The products designed specifically for food prep (like silver polish or some of the ammonia based polishes) tend not to be aggressive enough. An abrasive powder like Barkeepers Friend may also be helpful.

Once you get the knife cleaned up, you MUST wash and dry it immediately after each use. Not five minutes later. High-carbon steel, particularly of the Asian persuasion, will start to tarnish literally in the time it takes to slice an onion. It's actually quite remarkable to start with a polished knife, slice one onion, and see the discoloration in the steel.

The blueing and tarnish will occur no matter how fast you wash the knives. But, at least you can prevent rust by constantly wiping them dry. You can remove the tarnish with the polishes I mentioned, but on my Japanese knives, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't worth it because you have to polish them all the time and the tarnish/blueing is actually a pretty attractive "look" on traditional knives.

The Japanese sell a product called Camelia oil that is applied to cutlery to keep it from rusting when it is not being used. The most convenient form is a little bottle with big felt wick that applies the oil directly to the blade. A food-grade mineral oil is a very close substitute and would work fine for the same purpose.
 
Webb --

Your mention of Japanese knives piqued my interest. I have been looking around for a good slicing knife for meat, not fish. Can you recommend a brand or model or both? I don't want to go broke in the bargain, but I would be interested to see what you have and why.

Thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Walt Travers:
[qb] Your mention of Japanese knives piqued my interest. I have been looking around for a good slicing knife for meat, not fish. Can you recommend a brand or model or both? I don't want to go broke in the bargain, but I would be interested to see what you have and why.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use three knives for meat.

For prepping raw meat, particularly if it requires removing layers of fat or trimming around bones, I use a Henckels 4-Star 7 inch filet knife. This has a thin, flexible blade that easy to bend as necessary to work around bones, etc.
http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=109262

I use a matching 4-Star 10 inch slicer for everyday carving and slicing. I like the long blade length because it allows you to do a complete slice with a single pull stroke.
http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=109227

Both of these knives are standard stain-resistant alloy German forged knives. I don't think that the Henckels is any better or worse than a dozen other German brands. Just good basic everyday kitchen knives. There are many Japanese companies making similar stainless western style forged knives. Global is the most well-known of many such manufactureres. Generally speaking the Japanese versions of western knives tend to be a little sharper, a little lighter, and slightly less robust than the German versions...but, roughly speaking, these are all comparable knives.

I also use a high-end traditional Japanese knife for slicing some raw meat and cooked meat. This is a 9.5 inch high-carbon steel "sashimi slicer" with a traditional round wood handle. The knife is chisel ground (sharpened on one side only). Because of the steel and the geometry, it is ungodly sharp -- a totally different experience than a standard knife.
http://www.japanesecutlery.com/cutlery/professionalcutlery.html (first group on the page)

You have to be extremely careful using it on meat. Because it is hardened to Rockwell 63 or higher, the cutting edge will chip instantly with the slightest contact with bone or a carving fork. So I only use it on boneless raw meat or for carving cooked boneless meat. It works great on pork butt and it is unbelievable for doing those thin slices at an angle on a grilled flank steak or London Broil. But, overall, it's too finicky for general purpose meat cutting or bbq duties.

Also, it rusts INSTANTLY. It literally must be washed and dried the second you are done cutting. Leave it on the cutting board for 5 minutes and you are asking for trouble.

If I had to pick one knife for every day meat slicing, it would be a forged stainless 10-inch slicer. Any of the German brands (Henckels, Wusthoff, Messermeister, F. Dick, etc.) would be comparable as would any of the Japanese western-style stainless knives. The choice is really a matter of personal preference (heft, handle shape, balance, aesthetics) than any signficant difference in performance among the different brands in this category.

You can buy most of them in the $50 to $80 range. Wusthoff, Henckels, and Global are the most widely distributed and have the broadest lines in terms of available shapes and sizes. For these reasons, I would probably pick one of these brands if I were planning to build a collection over time.

I have a big 10-inch chef's knife, which gets a lot of daily use. However, I don't like that particular shape for most meat cutting. The thick wide blade tends to "stick" while slicing meat and it's not as maneuverable. It's hard to beat for chopping bbq, though!
 
Hi Walt,
You might try Mundial knives. They are sold in restuarant supply houses and at variuos sites on the Net. They are very good especially for the price. If you find a particular size/style that you really like then you can spend the big money for Wustof
or Sabattier. I have a 10" Henkel slicer that has ablunt tip and the "kullen" blade with the small cut-outs to reduce friction that I use to slice Butts and briskets after they are cooked. I use a regular boning/fillet knife for cutting and trimming
raw meat.
As an aside,my son who is a chef and uses knives as real work tools,recommended one of the new diamond impregnated "steels". It cost $38 but I was amazed at how well it put an edge on my knives. Sorry about wandering but I really enjoy using a good knife for cooking. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pat barnes:
[qb]Hi Walt,
You might try Mundial knives. They are sold in restuarant supply houses and at variuos sites on the Net. They are very good especially for the price.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Mudial knives are also sold under the Le Cordon Bleu brand with a blue handles. They are both Brazilian made forged knives. I'm sure they are fine for the money, although if you shop around, you can probably find the German brands for not a whole lot more.

For example, here's a knife dealer in the The Netherlands that sells the Wusthoff 10 inch slicer for $42 with with free 3-day shipping to the US on orders of about $100.
http://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/wusthof-trident-grand-prix-carving.htm
 
Everything that has been said before is right on.

I might add, from my experience with my Henckels 4-Star knives, that the Henckels don't hold an edge as well as the Wusthoff Trident line of knives which I've slowly been giving my daughter. If I'd been smart, I would have given her my Henckels and kept the Wusthoff for myself.

Apparently, according to conversations I've had with PCD (Professional Cutlery Direct), the Henckels are a bit softer than the Wusthoff and when I use my diamond steel, I must "finish" the Henckels with my regular steel.

Don't get me wrong--my Henckels are fine, but just need a little more attention.

Just another thought to confuse matters even more.
Rita
 
Since they are made in the same town and have been competing head-to-head at the same price points for a hundred years or so, I would be VERY surprised if there are signficant differences in hardness or alloy content between Henckels and Trident.

I think it's much more likely that any given knife retailer is spouting BS. I have found that the industry, as a whole, provides virtually zero useful information and relies, instead, on myths and old wives' tales to sell their product. When was the last time you saw anyone in the knife industry actually detail the alloy they use or accurately state their sharpening angles?

A perfect example are the "steels" that the knife merchants push so heavily. A proper steel (which is mirror smooth) doesn't sharpen at all; it merely aligns an already sharp edge. The "ribbed" or "grooved" steels that are so common are nothing but round files -- they do terrible things to a properly sharpened knife (ripping little microscopic chunks out the edge). These ribbed steels give a false sense of sharpness because they leave little jagged teeth that seem sharp until they bend and break off, forcing you to get the file out again. It's a vicious cycle that is totally unnecesary for, and quite destructive to, a properly honed knife edge.

Nobody in their right mind would take a file out of their toolbox to "sharpen" their expensive kitchen knives, but everyone seems to think they should use these round files every day. Go figure!

None of the mass-produced factory knives are delivered with particularly sharp edges. They simply can't afford the labor. The factories hone the edges on automated grinding wheels and they are only polished to the equivalent of maybe a 100 to 150 grit coarse ceramic stone.

The first thing I do with any new German knife is spend an hour putting a good edge on it with the EdgePro sharpener. The 18 degree angles that the Germans use is an OK compromise between sharpness and durability, but they really need to be polished on a medium 220 to 320 grit stone at a minimum. Doing final polish on a 600 grit ceramic stone or rod is even better. I recently compared my edge to a brand new Henckels paring knife and it wasn't even a contest for sharpness. The same is true for almost all mass-produced kitchen knives.

Sharpen any of these factory-made stainless steel knives at the same angle to the same level of finish and I think you would be hard pressed to tell ANY difference in the way they cut. In my opinion, the real determining factor is the sharpening strategy, not the brand on the knives.
 
Wow. All this makes me think my Ginzu knives I bought at the Ohio State Fair in 1978 seem pretty lame :-)
 
Walt,
A plug for an Aussie product (available in USA)- the Furi knife - see
nullFuri
I don't have one, but I've seen one & written to Santa Clause ....
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Jock
 
Jim:

I agree. Steve's knife-sharpening site is the best resource on the subject on the web and one of the few sources anywhere with comprehensive, accurate information.

His site, along with years of frustration trying to keep knives sharp, led to my purchase of the EdgePro Apex, which is by far the best sharpening system available today. Using the EdgePro has really opened my eyes about sharp knives.

It's an expensive system at $125, but when you factor the quality of the engineering, the support of its developer Ben Dale, and the ease with which an amateur hack like me can put a frighteningly sharp edge on any knife, the price starts to seem pretty darn reasonable.

Once you get the initial bevels cut the way you like them, touch-up honing is a breeze. I can run through a block of ten Henckels knives in about 30 minutes.
 
Webb
I have the Lansky, it was a gift, and I will say that does a good job but large stones would have been nice. I have not seen the EdgePro up close but it does look like it's worth the money.
Competing sharp slicers can win you a lot of money, good sharping tools are a must.
Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Minion:
[qb]I have the Lansky, it was a gift, and I will say that does a good job but large stones would have been nice. I have not seen the EdgePro up close but it does look like it's worth the money.[/qb] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would say that the Lansky is capable of putting every bit as good an edge on a knife as the EdgePro. Conceptually, they are the same.

The extra money buys you an easier, more efficient machine that is more convenient to use on a wider variety of knives plus the ability to infinitely adjust your sharpening angles and precisely repeat them for subsequent touch-ups. The leverage the EdgePro provides makes for very fast sharpening.

I leave mine set-up on a closet shelf. So using it is just a matter of placing it next to a sink. I use the sink hose sprayer to rinse off the stones over the sink as I sharpen, so it's all rather hassle-free.

With no clamping and reclamping, you can whip through a bunch of knives very quickly...particularly if you have them all set with the same bevel angles. For most of my everyday Henckels, I use the same 17 degree bevel angles, so touch up is very fast -- just a couple of quick passes with a 600 grit stone and on to the next knife.

I have a little chart of the settings used for each knife and a small ruler, so it takes just seconds to adjust the machine to duplicate the settings previously used on that knife.
 
Hi,
Not being familiar with the product I cannot judge it. I did notice that the shipping US is a flat $10 OUCH for a $20
item. I use an oval-shaped diamond "steel".
Unlike a regular steel it actually removes a small amount of metal when used. I paid $40 for minebut got a 12". The 10" is cheaper. I also ordered it with some other things to spread out the shipping. Knife sharpening is fairly controversial so I hope I don't upset too many people with my choice of sharpening tools. I also have a ceramic sharpener from Wustof that i use to set edges
It has 2 sets of wheels and does basically the same thing that the Hunter Hone does but in a different way. Bottom line is find what works for you and that you like and stick with it. I have a good friend who swears by
an electric Chef's Choice sharpener.
 
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