Rub question: spices and long cook times


 

j biesinger

TVWBB Platinum Member
I've read enough around here and created enough of my own evidence to know that flavors in the rub seem to disappear during the cook. This has generated a lot of questions that I'd thought I'd pose to see if anyone has some answers before I do the hard work of experimenting.

I tend to apply a dose of rub at the end of a cook, either on top of the qlazed on sauce or right on the meat if I foiled it and want the bark to tighten back up. Should I consider a basic rub at the start and a more complex, finishing rub at the end?

Are there spices/flavors that hold up better that should be relied on and some that don't that should be omitted? Chiles seem to do all right, mustard...not so much.

Has anybody had experience with flavored oils and wet rubs? I'm thinking that flavor compounds are flavor compounds, but I'm wondering if an oil might help preserve some flavors longer.
 
IMO, K will cover up alot of the flavors in your rub, not sure what your cooking over? This is JMO and I'm sure others will chime in. But as far as I'm concerned if you want to taste your rub, use lump and see if you can tell/notice a difference over K. I know I can tell the difference, as well as others here have found out the same thing.
 
It is a good question.

Though many spices, herbs and aromatics do change with long cooking they do cook into depth, i.e., they create a base of flavor depth from which to work--or to leave alone. (I tend to do the latter, adding or offering flavor notes in other ways, post cook.)

There are several ways to play this, alone or, often, in conjunction with others. One way is certainly to eliminate the superfluous stuff. Imo, paprika isn't worth bothering with unless you need to bulk up your rub. Its flavor doesn't doesn't hold up to long (or even kind of short) dry heat cooking. Ground mustard is utterly useles in rubs. It needs water to activate the compounds necessary for its flavor and heat but the application of heat during cooking will cut that off at the knees anyway; long cooking diminishes it to the point that it adds nothing--so why use it in the first place? Prepared mustard can work as a glue for the rub but as there are other ways to handle that, it's a waste as well, imo.

Wet or paste rubs can make a difference. I use them alone or with a dry-over-paste approach. This can go a long way toward flavor maintenance. Oil isn't vital (I use it for poultry for other reasons) but you can use it. Sometimes, depending on the other ingredients in the paste, oil can be helpful for blending (but so can water or other liquid(s)). It need not be flavored oil; it becomes flavored during the process. Use less than you'd think.

Because I want the depth, I make a rub as usual for the pre-cook rub. If adding an end-of-cook rub I use only the elements in that rub I want to bring to the fore. This (for me) means I do not include chilies (with the possible exceptions of Aleppo or aji amarillo or mirasol), nor herbs; nor much, if any, sugar, the aromatics garlic, onion and ginger, or the more distinctive spices or the ones that already tend to hold their flavor (cardamom, nutmeg or mace, fennel or aniseed, clove). What I do make, if doing this, is a mix of some of the others and apply it very lightly. Elements here might include cinnamon, allspice, coriander, sumac, mahlab, the various peppercorns (ground), powdered citrus zest, grains of paradise, Aleppo, cubeb, coffee bean. There are exceptions. I will sometimes add herbs (usually thyme, marjoram, basil and/or sage) for some beef cuts if I am looking for a more herb-y finish. I grind very, very well for mixes used late in cooking and might add a little sugar, salt or innocuous chile (like ancho) if needing to bulk it up for better coverage. Again, I apply very lightly, usually holding my sifter high above the meat's surface to maximize the potential for an even, light spread and minimize potential for heaviness.

Moreso than not (and another thing to consider) I simply include the elements I want to boost (or add) as part of a finishing glaze. Glazes should not be confused with sauces--i.e., the sauces that many apply to their ribs during cooking that tighten during cooking are not, imo, glazes--but a simple combinations of ingredients, first tightened in the pan, that are applied very thinly--painted on, actually--near the end of cooking, are virtually transparent, do not deleteriously affect surface texture, add shine, and add a flavor layer. Flavors one wants to add or boost are easily added this way.
 
Bryan: I typically cook with humphrey’s briquettes, sometimes with lump.

I don’t think it’s a masking of flavors but more of a muting of flavors. I tend to be under impressed by the flavor of my un-sauced meat. I use a Memphis style rub with a bunch of spices (garlic, mustard, oregano, cumin, coriander, celery, ancho, pepper, fennel, etc) that I think tastes great and has nice balance, but seems to underwhelm me on the finished product. I’ve only used the rub for a few months and probably less than 6 times. I haven’t settled on the amount of salt or an application amount, so I might just be not adding enough or missing some salt.

Kevin: thanks for taking the bait. Once you weigh in, I usually start thinking in new directions.

I had thought of the depth of flavor issue, but overlooked it in my recent frustrations. I really need to try some more cooks, and taste more critically.

I’m intrigued by the fact that you finely ground, and lightly dust your finish rub. Its pretty much 180 of where I’m at. I totally re-dust my brisket, and my rib rub tends to be more coarsely ground so every bite has a slightly different flavor profile. Then again, I’m pretty much a flavor hack, and not much one for nuance.

I guess it all stems from my recent successes cooking on the wsm. I feel the doneness of my ribs and brisket is approaching what I like, but the flavor of my recipes seems to fall far short of where I want to be. Sure, I like pork and beef flavors, and enjoy them when those flavors predominate, but occasionally I’d like to produce a rib that has a flavor that pops in your mouth sort of like a dorito (without the artificially boosted levels of glutamate, inosinate, and guanylate).

Has anybody tried using tomato powder? I’m thinking of using it in place of paprika. Its red, bulky, a natural source of glutamates, and can’t possibly burn worse than paprika.
 
Tomato and other vegetable powders don't work very well with dry heat cooking (vinegar and wine powders can, depending). Try Aleppo, guajillo, pasilla, aji mirasol, medium or hot NM, and/or aji amarillo. Try replacing some or all of the oregano with thyme and/or marjoram. Try skipping the mustard. For pop-in-your-mouth (and I like that too) consider additions that hold up well--those mentioned above as well as Worcestershire powder, Korintje or Ceylon cinnamon, allspice, ground bay. Any of those can go in for the first rub; al but the Worce can be used at finish. Though you need not skimp on the salt in the beginning, you can add a little at the finish (I use Maldon for this--try it).

I use finely ground to finish because I don't want the finish visual to suggest a recent application. Not required if that is not a concern. But I also want to be able to make the application very light but even/thorough. Coarse doesn't work well for that. I only rarely finely grind the mix for the original application.

Play with a glaze or two. Not the sucrose-heavy sort like Gaulden's (though I realize comps are so all about sweet, unfortunately); consider fruit (including tomato) elements, some acidity, a tiny bit of fat (at least a little of which is unsalted butter) and, lastly, sweetness from sucrose of one sort or another, perhaps a little honey. You can get the sweetness in the back door instead. Spicing the glaze (you can do what I frequently do: start by sautéing minced shallot in a little butter along with your spices/herbs; deglaze with an appropriate liquid or two, strain out the solids then continue; finish with the sweeteners).

Just some thoughts...
 
I'm thinking something tart might give me a little pucker. what works well? vinegar powders or citric acid?

I like worcestershire power, only used it twice but feel it has some potential. why shouldn't I use it at the end though?

Kevin, do you marinade your briskets? I notice you do a wet and a dry rub. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm wondering if a little soak in something like soy (flavorful but not acidic) before the rub might give it some flavor.
 
I'll second Brian on the opinion that Kingsford masks the taste of the rubs.

I was going through the same thing, it seemed like no matter what rub I used, it all tasted nearly the same.

I made the switch to lump, and WOW. You can clearly taste the difference in the rubs now. So depending on your fuel source, try lump if you aren't cooking over it already!
 
'll second Brian on the opinion that Kingsford masks the taste of the rubs.

I was going through the same thing, it seemed like no matter what rub I used, it all tasted nearly the same.

I made the switch to lump, and WOW. You can clearly taste the difference in the rubs now. So depending on your fuel source, try lump if you aren't cooking over it already!

I use only humphrey's lump or briquette, never thought to look for a difference. what's the reasoning?
 
Originally posted by j biesinger:
I'm thinking something tart might give me a little pucker. what works well? vinegar powders or citric acid?

I like worcestershire power, only used it twice but feel it has some potential. why shouldn't I use it at the end though?

Kevin, do you marinade your briskets? I notice you do a wet and a dry rub. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm wondering if a little soak in something like soy (flavorful but not acidic) before the rub might give it some flavor.

For sour or tart I use Aleppo, Worce powder, citrus zest, amchur, sumac, powdered vin, powdered wine, usually in various combinations.

Worce powder is, imo, too much added at the end.

I like marinating briskets, actually, but don't often as I don't often have the lead time. I make brine-marinades, buttermilk-based usually. I use soy only when skewing flavors that direction; I find the flavor a bit too distinctive for general use but it works well because of its salt. I simply add enough salt so that my marinades work as brines.
 
I use soy only when skewing flavors that direction; I find the flavor a bit too distinctive for general use but it works well because of its salt.

man, do I ever agree. I shun most bbq recipes that include soy unless I'm looking for an asian flavor.

on a similar note, have you ever tried miso marinated beef? I've done miso-marinated salmon, and this thread got me thinking about applying it to beef.
 
Originally posted by j biesinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">'ll second Brian on the opinion that Kingsford masks the taste of the rubs.

I was going through the same thing, it seemed like no matter what rub I used, it all tasted nearly the same.

I made the switch to lump, and WOW. You can clearly taste the difference in the rubs now. So depending on your fuel source, try lump if you aren't cooking over it already!

I use only humphrey's lump or briquette, never thought to look for a difference. what's the reasoning? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm no charcoal engineer, but with lump seemingly to be a more natural fuel source, I'd attribute it to all the chemicals and additives used to create the manmade briquettes. Plus, since so many people use the same briquettes for grilling (not smoking), these companies want to give them that manmade BBQ flavor. While us on the other hand want to create the flavor ourselves with the smoke wood and rubs.
 
ok, I accept that briquettes can magically make spice flavors disappear. I promise to only use lump from now on.

Kevin, miso marinated filet sounds so right. I told my wife and she found a bunch of recipes online. the plan is do some this week with grilled ****akes, japanese eggplant (if I can score some), and sweet potatoes (all touched up with some homemade togarashi shichimi), maybe a side of gyoza and maki rolls. can you tell I'm excited? hit me with some tips, if you're game.
 
I'd consider a Japanese spinach salad (oshitashi or goma ae), served room temp, as a side, as a repalcement for the eggplant, or with the eggplant playing second fiddle. I think you need some lightness on the plate. The dressing for the salad is roasted or toasted sesame seeds with sugar and soy, sometimes with mirin added. Consider making the sweet potatoes very thinly sliced, or into batons. The sweetness of those and the dressing on the spinach will play well with the beef. (For filet I use straight shiro miso, applied evenly, wiped off after 24 hours; for other cuts I'll sometimes add mirin, ginger, etc.) Consider adding a little ground ginger to your shichimi. It will work well with the beef and sweet potatoes.

Let us know how it goes.
 
'd consider a Japanese spinach salad (oshitashi or goma ae), served room temp, as a side, as a repalcement for the eggplant, or with the eggplant playing second fiddle.

Funny, I was just thinking another side might be some greens wilted in dashi.

I'll try the ginger in the shichimi, I can't object to that.

I'll be sure to post some pics in our grilling section. I haven't grilled/smoked anything of interest in some time. I was practicing so much this summer for a comp, that I don't want eat bbq for a looong time.
 

 

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