Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
OK lets do a No5 Rub. What 5 ingredients would you put in a rub? Would you leave salt out ala Kruger or leave out S&P?
Rub Contest: No 5 Rub, just 5 ingredients
- Thread starter Steve Petrone
- Start date
Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
OK, onion or garlic.
One of the medium heat red peppers.
No sugar.
Cumin.
Celery seed.
Cinnamon or allspice.
Just some random thoughts to start.
One of the medium heat red peppers.
No sugar.
Cumin.
Celery seed.
Cinnamon or allspice.
Just some random thoughts to start.
Bill Comerford
TVWBB Pro
I second what ever K Kruger will say!
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Funny Bill.
I would salt the meat first, as usual (so wouldn't include that in the count
) and would consider (in order of volume):
onion
garlic
ground guajillo or Aleppo
rubbed sage
white pepper
The sweetness, if desired, can be handled post facto via glaze or sauce.
Alternatively:
onion
ground guajillo or Aleppo
thyme or sage
coriander
cinnamon
The sweetness (and black or white pepper) can be added after the cook.
I would salt the meat first, as usual (so wouldn't include that in the count
onion
garlic
ground guajillo or Aleppo
rubbed sage
white pepper
The sweetness, if desired, can be handled post facto via glaze or sauce.
Alternatively:
onion
ground guajillo or Aleppo
thyme or sage
coriander
cinnamon
The sweetness (and black or white pepper) can be added after the cook.
Steve Cutchen
TVWBB Super Fan
From my spreadsheet of rubs, there are 8 major rub components:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Sugar
<LI> Paprika
<LI> Salt
<LI> Chile powder
<LI> Garlic
<LI> Onion
<LI> Pepper
<LI> Spices / Other
[/list]
If you pre-salt, you're down to 7. And if you post-sugar and post-pepper, you have a lot of options. Kevin leaves out chile powder as well, so he gets to add another spice.
Staying really basic, and only pre-salting and post-sugaring:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Paprika
<LI> Chile powder
<LI> Garlic
<LI> Onion
<LI> Pepper
[/list]
So that would be my Five.
My basic rub is these five, with sugar, cayenne and thyme.
The next question is what do you pick from each category?
Under Chile Powder, you can select, for example:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> generic
<LI> ancho
<LI> chipotle
[/list]
Under Garlic and Onion, you can go with powder or granulated.
Under Pepper, you can select, for example:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> black peppercorns (for peppercorns, grind to your favorite consistency)
<LI> coarse ground black pepper
<LI> ground black pepper
<LI> ground white pepper
<LI> green peppercorns
<LI> mixed peppercorns
<LI> crushed red pepper flakes
[/list]
For completeness, here are the options in my spreadsheet for sugar:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> sugar
<LI> dark brown sugar
<LI> light brown sugar
<LI> turbinado sugar
[/list]
And here are the Spices / Others
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> cayenne
<LI> cumin
<LI> dry mustard
<LI> Accent
<LI> bay leaf
<LI> celery salt
<LI> celery seed
<LI> coriander seeds
<LI> cumin seed
<LI> dried marjoram
<LI> dried thyme
<LI> dried rosemary
<LI> ground allspice
<LI> ground celery seed
<LI> ground cinnamon
<LI> ground ginger
<LI> ground oregano
<LI> hot red pepper sauce
[/list]
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Sugar
<LI> Paprika
<LI> Salt
<LI> Chile powder
<LI> Garlic
<LI> Onion
<LI> Pepper
<LI> Spices / Other
[/list]
If you pre-salt, you're down to 7. And if you post-sugar and post-pepper, you have a lot of options. Kevin leaves out chile powder as well, so he gets to add another spice.
Staying really basic, and only pre-salting and post-sugaring:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Paprika
<LI> Chile powder
<LI> Garlic
<LI> Onion
<LI> Pepper
[/list]
So that would be my Five.
My basic rub is these five, with sugar, cayenne and thyme.
The next question is what do you pick from each category?
Under Chile Powder, you can select, for example:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> generic
<LI> ancho
<LI> chipotle
[/list]
Under Garlic and Onion, you can go with powder or granulated.
Under Pepper, you can select, for example:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> black peppercorns (for peppercorns, grind to your favorite consistency)
<LI> coarse ground black pepper
<LI> ground black pepper
<LI> ground white pepper
<LI> green peppercorns
<LI> mixed peppercorns
<LI> crushed red pepper flakes
[/list]
For completeness, here are the options in my spreadsheet for sugar:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> sugar
<LI> dark brown sugar
<LI> light brown sugar
<LI> turbinado sugar
[/list]
And here are the Spices / Others
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> cayenne
<LI> cumin
<LI> dry mustard
<LI> Accent
<LI> bay leaf
<LI> celery salt
<LI> celery seed
<LI> coriander seeds
<LI> cumin seed
<LI> dried marjoram
<LI> dried thyme
<LI> dried rosemary
<LI> ground allspice
<LI> ground celery seed
<LI> ground cinnamon
<LI> ground ginger
<LI> ground oregano
<LI> hot red pepper sauce
[/list]
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kevin leaves out chile powder as well </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't. Ground guajillo and Aleppo (further ground) are chile powders. They can be used in chili, of course. I have no 'chili powder' in my spice racks as I prefer to add the individual components to chili myself (most are merely combinations of ground chile (usually ancho, sometime others), salt, sugar, onion, garlic, cumin and, often oregano.
I didn't. Ground guajillo and Aleppo (further ground) are chile powders. They can be used in chili, of course. I have no 'chili powder' in my spice racks as I prefer to add the individual components to chili myself (most are merely combinations of ground chile (usually ancho, sometime others), salt, sugar, onion, garlic, cumin and, often oregano.
Steve Cutchen
TVWBB Super Fan
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote: Kevin leaves out chile powder as well
I didn't. Ground guajillo and Aleppo (further ground) are chile powders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
DOH! I knew that. I just spaced.
I went back and reviewed Chris Baker's experiments, and he made a couple of findings that would have impact on a No. 5 Rub.
He said that the paprika basically only gave a red color component, not much flavor at all. And with the exception of his New Mexico chile powder which was retained and tasted great, other chile powders, and he ground them himself, (ancho, chipotle, Kashmir) didn't retain much flavor.
So maybe there is a tradeoff for flavor versus color in a No. 5 Rub, leaving our paprika and unproven chile powders for other more flavor retaining spice ingredients.
And, this probably helps explains why specific proven chile powders like Kevin uses are worth specifying precisely.
Here are the spices that held up in Chris' tests:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> allspice
<LI> basil (this surprises me)
<LI> bay leaves
<LI> caraway
<LI> cayenne
<LI> chile powder, New Mexico
<LI> coriander, though weakened a lot
<LI> cumin
<LI> marjoram
<LI> oregano
<LI> black pepper
<LI> thyme - though weakened a lot
[/list]
He also REALLY like Splenda as a sugar flavor, substituted 1:1 for sugar. He tried it because his father is a diabetic. He ended up liking it way better than regular sugar.
And Dark amber Maple syrup in a glaze.
The other interesting conclusion was that mustard flavor disappears. So that explains why it is such a good glue.
So maybe try this with a No. 5 Rub:
Pre-salt. If you want sugar, use Splenda. Add garlic, onion and pepper. Pick one or two more flavors from the list (depending on if you use a sugar) that hold up to the cooking process. Use sugar for pork. Skip it for beef. Glaze with a Dark Amber Maple-based glaze if you want sweetness.
I didn't. Ground guajillo and Aleppo (further ground) are chile powders. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
DOH! I knew that. I just spaced.
I went back and reviewed Chris Baker's experiments, and he made a couple of findings that would have impact on a No. 5 Rub.
He said that the paprika basically only gave a red color component, not much flavor at all. And with the exception of his New Mexico chile powder which was retained and tasted great, other chile powders, and he ground them himself, (ancho, chipotle, Kashmir) didn't retain much flavor.
So maybe there is a tradeoff for flavor versus color in a No. 5 Rub, leaving our paprika and unproven chile powders for other more flavor retaining spice ingredients.
And, this probably helps explains why specific proven chile powders like Kevin uses are worth specifying precisely.
Here are the spices that held up in Chris' tests:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> allspice
<LI> basil (this surprises me)
<LI> bay leaves
<LI> caraway
<LI> cayenne
<LI> chile powder, New Mexico
<LI> coriander, though weakened a lot
<LI> cumin
<LI> marjoram
<LI> oregano
<LI> black pepper
<LI> thyme - though weakened a lot
[/list]
He also REALLY like Splenda as a sugar flavor, substituted 1:1 for sugar. He tried it because his father is a diabetic. He ended up liking it way better than regular sugar.
And Dark amber Maple syrup in a glaze.
The other interesting conclusion was that mustard flavor disappears. So that explains why it is such a good glue.
So maybe try this with a No. 5 Rub:
Pre-salt. If you want sugar, use Splenda. Add garlic, onion and pepper. Pick one or two more flavors from the list (depending on if you use a sugar) that hold up to the cooking process. Use sugar for pork. Skip it for beef. Glaze with a Dark Amber Maple-based glaze if you want sweetness.
Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
What about celery seed vs coriander? Any thoughts anybody?
I thought about sage....perhaps for poultry.
I like cumin for beef.
Fennel for pork.
Kevin, I am using Thyme more everyday. Your influence....
I thought about sage....perhaps for poultry.
I like cumin for beef.
Fennel for pork.
Kevin, I am using Thyme more everyday. Your influence....
Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
ok guys lets think outside the box-I know there are some interesting flavor combos waiting to be discovered....
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What about celery seed vs coriander? Any thoughts anybody? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I went back and checked the Chris Baker experiment because Steve left celery seed off his list and I know its flavor holds up. Baker does note that celery flavor holds. I like celery seed, and right now it plays a big role in my rubs and sauces.
I'm going to have to do some work with chiles. I switched almost solely to ancho because new mex tends to lend too much heat. But now I'm going to have to do some side by side stuff to see which I prefer.
My rub:
salt and pepper are the backbone
need chile for color
and I'm currently stuck in a savory mode as opposed to sweet, so its got to be onion, garlic, cumin, coriander, celery seed.
some day I'll get around to playing with allspice and ceylon.
I went back and checked the Chris Baker experiment because Steve left celery seed off his list and I know its flavor holds up. Baker does note that celery flavor holds. I like celery seed, and right now it plays a big role in my rubs and sauces.
I'm going to have to do some work with chiles. I switched almost solely to ancho because new mex tends to lend too much heat. But now I'm going to have to do some side by side stuff to see which I prefer.
My rub:
salt and pepper are the backbone
need chile for color
and I'm currently stuck in a savory mode as opposed to sweet, so its got to be onion, garlic, cumin, coriander, celery seed.
some day I'll get around to playing with allspice and ceylon.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Filé isn't going to do much for a rub, imo but I like it in several sauces.
I like celery seed. Its flavor can be dominant so keep that in mind.
I like sage for all three; cumin for beef and pork (though I'll alter the quantity); fennel for beef and pork (though I'll alter the quantity).
Here, based on my quatre-épice (note the ratios):
1 T freshly ground white pepper
2 t ground clove
1.5 t ground nutmeg
1.5 t ground ginger
White pepper is preferable--use black if need be but white really adds to this.
That's quatre-épice. To that I'd add either:
1 T piment d'espelette (a chile grown in the northern Basque reqion)
or
1 T sugar
or
1.5 T coriander
or
any of the above with the ground clove subbed with an equal amount of allspice
I'd use this (or any of these combos) with pork or beef (or lightly on dark meat poultry). But I'm not really into so-called 'all-purpose' rubs.
A sauce with a fruit component (especially cherry, pineapple or mango) would not be unwelcome
I like celery seed. Its flavor can be dominant so keep that in mind.
I like sage for all three; cumin for beef and pork (though I'll alter the quantity); fennel for beef and pork (though I'll alter the quantity).
Here, based on my quatre-épice (note the ratios):
1 T freshly ground white pepper
2 t ground clove
1.5 t ground nutmeg
1.5 t ground ginger
White pepper is preferable--use black if need be but white really adds to this.
That's quatre-épice. To that I'd add either:
1 T piment d'espelette (a chile grown in the northern Basque reqion)
or
1 T sugar
or
1.5 T coriander
or
any of the above with the ground clove subbed with an equal amount of allspice
I'd use this (or any of these combos) with pork or beef (or lightly on dark meat poultry). But I'm not really into so-called 'all-purpose' rubs.
A sauce with a fruit component (especially cherry, pineapple or mango) would not be unwelcome
Steve Petrone
TVWBB Platinum Member
Kevin, for good ole boys, thats thinking out of the box. It obviously is common in circles I have not frequented. Thank you for bringing in that little something extra that at least some of us have not been exposed to.
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
You're welcome.
I think I was born outside the box, as it were. Though I kinda sorta made half-***'d attempts to get in it as a lad I was (thankfully) rebuffed. Then I read Thoreau* in 5th grade...
As you can imagine, it wouldn't be often I'd likely consider making a rub with just five ingredients but it's a fun exercise.
********
Worcestershire powder
sugar
amchoor
onion
white pepper
********
Aleppo
onion
garlic
thyme
marjoram
allspice
*********
Fairly curry-esque:
coriander
fenugreek
cumin
fennel
Thai chile, African bird pepper or cayenne
********
Kevin
* "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." --Henry David Thoreau Walden 1854
I think I was born outside the box, as it were. Though I kinda sorta made half-***'d attempts to get in it as a lad I was (thankfully) rebuffed. Then I read Thoreau* in 5th grade...
As you can imagine, it wouldn't be often I'd likely consider making a rub with just five ingredients but it's a fun exercise.
********
Worcestershire powder
sugar
amchoor
onion
white pepper
********
Aleppo
onion
garlic
thyme
marjoram
allspice
*********
Fairly curry-esque:
coriander
fenugreek
cumin
fennel
Thai chile, African bird pepper or cayenne
********
Kevin
* "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." --Henry David Thoreau Walden 1854
Brad Benski
TVWBB Super Fan
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Paul R:
I have a small bottle of file' powder that i have been wanting to mess with. Maybe this is the time?
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In my opinion File doesn't have much "flavor" in it's full strength form......less effect than Paprika in a rub. Not worth putting in.
I have a small bottle of file' powder that i have been wanting to mess with. Maybe this is the time?
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In my opinion File doesn't have much "flavor" in it's full strength form......less effect than Paprika in a rub. Not worth putting in.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Worcestershire powder </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmmm, seems like cheating since this is a mixture of many things. But I'll give you credit for finding a work around to the 5 ingredient limit.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Here, based on my quatre-épice (note the ratios):
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
since we're speaking french I'll add this nifty blend I learned from Victoria Wise's book: American Charcuterie, she calls it paté spice and offers it up as a savory alternative to the quatre-épice:
1 black pepper
1 white pepper
1/2 coriander seed
1/2 powdered ginger
1/4 nutmeg
1/4 clove
I use it for the back bone of a garlic sausage, and since I like it so much I'm thinking of other ways to use it on pork. On its own its over the 5 ingredient limit, but if we counted as one...
hmmm, seems like cheating since this is a mixture of many things. But I'll give you credit for finding a work around to the 5 ingredient limit.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Here, based on my quatre-épice (note the ratios):
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
since we're speaking french I'll add this nifty blend I learned from Victoria Wise's book: American Charcuterie, she calls it paté spice and offers it up as a savory alternative to the quatre-épice:
1 black pepper
1 white pepper
1/2 coriander seed
1/2 powdered ginger
1/4 nutmeg
1/4 clove
I use it for the back bone of a garlic sausage, and since I like it so much I'm thinking of other ways to use it on pork. On its own its over the 5 ingredient limit, but if we counted as one...
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
That is a version of quatre-épice; the addition of the black pepper (or its use with white rather than in place of it) is not uncommon. It is used in many patés and, notably, in many versions of tourtière, the meat pie of the Québecois.
Yes, I suppose the Worcestershire powder could be viewed as more than one ingredient. I decided (!) it could be seen as one, as it is a dried version of a ostensibly purchased mixed liquid-solid concoction rather than a mix of dried spices/herbs/seasonings like, say, Old bay, or herbes de Provence.
Yes, I suppose the Worcestershire powder could be viewed as more than one ingredient. I decided (!) it could be seen as one, as it is a dried version of a ostensibly purchased mixed liquid-solid concoction rather than a mix of dried spices/herbs/seasonings like, say, Old bay, or herbes de Provence.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That is a version of quatre-épice; the addition of the black pepper (or its use with white rather than in place of it) is not uncommon. It is used in many patés and, notably, in many versions of tourtière, the meat pie of the Québecois. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
right. She mentions quatre-épice typically contains cinnamon, which yours did not, so I assumed they were highly variable. It was her designation, not mine. I've only begun to explore french 4 spice. I'm a bit more familiar with chinese 5 spice and japanese 7 spice and their variations.
ok, enough thread derailing.
btw, I appreciate the fact that you debated the legality of worchestershire powder before suggesting it
right. She mentions quatre-épice typically contains cinnamon, which yours did not, so I assumed they were highly variable. It was her designation, not mine. I've only begun to explore french 4 spice. I'm a bit more familiar with chinese 5 spice and japanese 7 spice and their variations.
ok, enough thread derailing.
btw, I appreciate the fact that you debated the legality of worchestershire powder before suggesting it