Help! Brisket Internal Temperature


 
T

Tony Hunter

TVWBB Pro
What internal temp is the best for a brisket? Mine usually come out tender and very tasty, but I think they could be a bit juicier and of better texture. Here is a pic of one I did that came out great, but you can see that it looks a litlle dry. It was not dry but it definitely could have been moister. Also, It does not have the texture I would like to see. I cooked this to 190 degrees internal I think.

 
Tony

Here's a thread that may offer some info. Drying out is the primary reason I've switched to foiling at 160 with a brisket. Its doable without the foil, but you gotta' be good and sometimes lucky.

Paul
 
My brisket cooking is a bit like a pendulum. For some time, I'd take off around 190-ish, because I wanted it to be a bit more tender. But, it was just a little dry. Then, I started to take it off around 185. Very, very moist, just not quite as tender.

So now I try and shoot for somewhere in between. Erring on the side of being more moist, rather than more tender. My reasoning for that is because you can compensate a bit for slightly tougher meat by how you cut it. Cut it thinner and at a greater bias and you'll replicate the tenderness... without losing the moisture you would by overcooking. You can't compensate for a loss of moisture, no matter how much sauce you douse on it.

About monitoring temps on brisket... am I the only one that finds it frustrating since the temp of the darn flat can vary 5-10 degrees from side to side? So, I'm always wary of exact temps anyhow. That said, I find the "fork test" or the "probe test" to be even worse. I mean, what exactly is fork tender? I've had fork tender that was tough... also had a probe slide in like butter, but was overcooked. So, until I've got hundreds of those briskets under my belt like the true pros, I think I'll stick with temps, albeit frustratingly so.

Anyhow, what all this means is that somewhere around 187-ish in the thickest part of the flat is usually pretty good for me. I usually cut off the thinnest part and chop it up for chili anyhow. But about 85 percent of the flat is left that tastes great and moist.

Anyhow, my two cents.

= by the way... what rub are you using on your brisket? Looks nearly black. Looks great. Is there a lot of sugar in it? I'm hungry...
 
Ah Tony - searching for the BBQers Grail huh, tender and juicy!

To be honest, I've only achieved this a couple times with uninjected briskets. They were prime or CAB packer cuts, and I monitored the cooks much more than usual. Cooked at a little lower temperature, and foiled at somepoint. But that's the catch, I can't tell you I foiled at certain temperature or anything, it was more of a judgement according to color, and texture, and knowing it needed more time to finish, but it didn't seem right to let it go uncovered. Temperature was probably around 170-175 when foiled, but again that wasn't the only criteria used when electing to put in foil. I added nothing to the foil (i.e. no extra liquid or anything).

As for erring, when making brisket for home, I go for the more tender stuff. You can remoisten with some of the juices collected in the foil with beef broth, and it takes sauce very well, and most people will put sauce on it when given the opporutinty. That's my approach.

And Adam - I bet your on the way to understanding fork tender more than you think. I don't think there's a magic temperature to pull at, but it ceratainly helps to know that that you're starting to get to a temperature where you're experience indicates a higher likelyhood of drying out.

P.S. Tony - you coming to Carmel this year?
 
Good points, Adam. Good points, Joe.

One of the hardest parts of posting to this board (or writing about cooking or even having a cooking conversation over the phone) is that it can be hard to convey subtlety and nuance. Another part of that is that when one has cooked for a long time or has a lot of experience with cooking a particular dish--like brisket--elements of the cooks and, particularly, subtle changes in decision-making during the cooks can be or is nearly impossible to convey later because one doesn't often realize it occurred in the first place. Fork- or probe-testing and how that relates to internal temp is a good example. When I have a brisket nearing finish temp I'll feel it with a fork or probe. I'm not into poking brisket all over so I will make a judgment right then based on temp and feel: pull now, soon, or later.

I judge the meat when I first pull it out of the package--how it feels and what I think about its relative thickness and the fat I can see and feel on it and in it. I don't really think about it as much as get a 'sense' of it but I know that sense of it partly determines the temp I'll foil (and if I'll foil), partly determines the temp I'll first check it for 'done', and partly determines the target finish--how long I might let it go after I first check it.

Before anyone accuses me of going all brown-rice-and-yogurt-touchy-feely-70s-Zen-hippie over brisket think about it. If you are not (yet) doing this with brisket it is quite likely you are with other things you cook regularly. be it Q'd foods or others. And scores of people on this board make just this sort of sense-informed decision when they make vent adjustments based (fairly unconsciously) on their sense of how much and what type of fuel they're using, how much more or less they want the heat, their sense of ambient conditions, etc. When you do it a lot you don't think about all these variables but they do influence what, how and when you make adjustments. Same kind of thing with brisket.

I don't think there is a magic temp either but when asked I go with mid-upper 180s. Often, if someone is having a specific problem and can give me lots of details about the nature of the meat they use and how they cook it I can make specific suggestions such as taking it to the low-mid 190s before checking it, cooking at a different temp, etc.

It is brisket that is the problem here; they vary within the cut and they vary within the grade. Briskets can be much more susceptible to differences in cooking and the minutiae within an approach are not always so trivial when it comes to brisket.

I think meat selection is key and I think making some small and some not-so-small changes in approach to 'level the playing field' among briskets can be helpful. Stuff like Joe mentions--making decisions based on color and texture--and things like making adjustments based on thickness and size, are examples of small changes; foiling, marinating, injecting--these not-so-small techniques can be used allow a certain base of consistency from which to further refine your approach.

I am not saying you have to do any of these things and should you do any it still remains for you to decide when and for how long to foil, in what and for how long to marinate, and with what to inject. What I'm suggesting is that these sorts of things can make one brisket a bit more like another, overall, so that results are somewhat easier to replicate and changes in approach have more noticeable effect, allowing your experimenting to be more tangible, to be more useful.

Though I have never found it worth it to pay a premium for CAB over Choice when it comes to steaks I would definitely consider CAB briskets were I competing--especially while I was working on developing my approach. Prime would be another option--the big deal is to find a supplier where you can be assured of fairly consistent product from the get-go; size, weight and grade consistency can go a long way in helping you to figure out a workable, adaptable, replicative technique for brisket.

Yes, we all know 'regular' Choice and Select briskets can and do win in comp. In my opinion leveling your own playing field by starting with and cooking briskets that are very similar to each other right out of the package makes it easier to develop an approach you'll be happy with.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Before anyone accuses me of going all brown-rice-and-yogurt-touchy-feely-70s-Zen-hippie ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But we already accused you of that long ago!
icon_smile.gif


Great points Kev. Now we just need to find a stinking butcher out here who will sell CAB brisket that doesn't charge more than $6 per pound...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But we already accused you of that long ago! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Moi?
icon_eek.gif


It will depend on your area but it is worth calling the meat suppliers to restaurants. Many will sell direct if you buy a case, the prices are much better than retail and you can get consistency (usually).
 
Tony,

I have a recipe/method for brisket where the meat is taken off the heat at an internal temperature of between 170 and 185. It is from a Texas pitmaster and was in the April 2004 Saveur magazine. The meat looks really moist with a moderate smoke ring in the photos.

I haven't tried this yet because even the 185 temperature is lower than I've seen recommended and the method is different from most I have seen. Some differences (all from memory, I can confirm later):

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>It is cooked on a grill at a temperature between 250 to 275.
<LI>Smoke wood isn’t added until the <STRIKE>4th</STRIKE> 3rd hour of the cook.
<LI>It is cooked wrapped in foil for four hours.
<LI>It cooks one to two more hours in the open foil to reabsorb the moisture.
<LI>Total cooking time is <STRIKE>11</STRIKE> 13 to <STRIKE>13</STRIKE> 15 hours.[/list]
That seems like an awfully long time cooking at over 250 for an internal temperature of 170, especially using foil. I now have a BBQ Baffle and will try the recipe and report my results. Should I pull it at 170 or wait until 185?

Jim
 
gotta say, if you were to pull it at 170, I can't imagine how it wouldn't be very, very tough. Not sure what this pitmaster was doing to get a tender brisket at 170... but that wouldn't be what I'd get at that temp...
 
Kevin,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:

Before anyone accuses me of going all brown-rice-and-yogurt-touchy-feely-70s-Zen-hippie... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best line I've read in a long, long time. LOL!!!

The rest of your post was, perhaps, the most insightful and descriptive commentary I've ever read on two aspects of BBQ I, and I'm sure many others, yearn for; wisdom and experience.

I can have all of the recipes, techniques, temps, rubs, woods, tools, gadgets, and gizmos money can buy, but without the wisdom and experience to bring it together, it's all just a collection of junk and useless information. During any given cook, my results may, or may not be great, and my wisdom and experience (what little there is) is key.

To Tony I would say the path to the "Juicy & Tender BBQ Grail" is ever changing, and can't be navigated through specific times, temps, or even cuts of meat. Your wisdom and experience will prove to be your best asset. At some point in your BBQ Learning Curve you'll learn when "it's done," and it won't be based so much on a temp or time, but on "feel." The trouble is, you can't read, time, or buy "feel."

"Feel" is the word used to describe wisdom and experience, and it has to be earned. So one brisket might be just right at 187?, while the next will require 197?. You're only going to know which is which based on, well, you get the idea. But hey, at least we get to eat our mistakes.
 
BBQ'ing is like that scene in the Matrix when Neo, relying on his inner strength and enlightenment, puts his hand out and stops all those bullets. Mike
 
I have made 3 briskets so far and all have been absolutely wonderful. Juicy and tender. I have used choice graded untrimmed packers for all three and hardly trimmed them at all myself. I also let them rest for at least two hours each (one rested for four hours in a cooler and never got below 140!) after pulling at 188. How important do you all rank allowing extra rest time? My first one rested for a long time and I have been too afraid to change anything because...well...if it ain't broke...you know.
 
resting is always, always a good thing. Cut into that sucker too soon and you can see the juicy goodness ooze right on out of there. I'm not sure you'd notice much of a difference between resting 1 hour or 3, but certainly less than an hour and I think you can notice a big difference.
 
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