Forschner Knives Purchase - A couple questions
- Thread starter Teddy J.
- Start date
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Well, first, allow me to disabuse you of the notion that the in-the-air approach to steeling is the best method. It isn't. The flailing one sees on the cooking shows is often just silly and is probably the thing that keeps home cooks from learning anything about steeling and its importance and so they don't bother; their knives suffer.
Steeling is one of the most important skills to have and utilize, when it comes to knives, without question. An in-the-air approach can be learned then practiced but it is more important to understand the point and process and learn an easier way first, imo, so that you're comfortable with it and thus reap its benefits.
Frequent steeling will keep your knives sharper for much, much longer. A sharp knife is much, much safer than a dull or dulling knife. It's good for the knives and so is good for you. You should steel pretty much every time you use your knives. I'm speaking here of steeling with a regular cut or smooth metal steel, not a diamond or ceramic. (Those two are different and their use should be much less frequent.)
For most home cooks a regular cut steel is probably best. Though the steel will remove a little metal (and thus provide a little sharpening) while it realigns the edge, this is nothing to be concerned with. A regular cut steel offers good tactile feedback and that's important when you're just getting the hang of it. (Very avid cooks--those doing frequent multiple-hour cooking sessions with heavy knife work should consider getting both a regular cut and a fine cut or smooth (polished) steel.) F.Dick makes superior metal steels of varying prices based on finish, cut, length, and handle material. (Here, scroll past the diamonds.)
Hold the steel so that the tip is straight down on a cutting board or kitchen towl, something that won't slip. Put your knife edge on the steel directly (but gently), so that it's at 90 degrees. Tip your knife so that it's half that, or 45 degrees, then half of that angle again--that will put you at 22 degrees or so, just where you want to be for the vast majority of knives from American and European manufacturers. (Angles and edges are different on Japanese knives in most cases and many Japanese knives should not be steeled with metal.)
From PCD--they're succinct: Start with the heel of the blade contacting the steel as close to the handle as possible with the tip pointing straight out away from you. Pull the blade back towards you and down the shaft of the steel. The motion should end with the tip of the blade in contact with the steel towards the bottom of the shaft. Switch sides and do the exact same thing on the other side. Because you are holding the steel vertically you can see that you are using the same angle on both sides. Repeat about 4 - 5 times. Gentle pressure is all that is needed. You don't want to grind your knife. If you hear an almost musical sound, the pressure is perfect.
That's all there is to it. If you do it slowly and watch what you're doing you can maintain your angle without trouble. As your body gets comfortable with how it should feel your speed will increase naturally. It is not necessary to try to be fast. It's just a matter of being aware of what you're doing while you're doing it.
Steeling is one of the most important skills to have and utilize, when it comes to knives, without question. An in-the-air approach can be learned then practiced but it is more important to understand the point and process and learn an easier way first, imo, so that you're comfortable with it and thus reap its benefits.
Frequent steeling will keep your knives sharper for much, much longer. A sharp knife is much, much safer than a dull or dulling knife. It's good for the knives and so is good for you. You should steel pretty much every time you use your knives. I'm speaking here of steeling with a regular cut or smooth metal steel, not a diamond or ceramic. (Those two are different and their use should be much less frequent.)
For most home cooks a regular cut steel is probably best. Though the steel will remove a little metal (and thus provide a little sharpening) while it realigns the edge, this is nothing to be concerned with. A regular cut steel offers good tactile feedback and that's important when you're just getting the hang of it. (Very avid cooks--those doing frequent multiple-hour cooking sessions with heavy knife work should consider getting both a regular cut and a fine cut or smooth (polished) steel.) F.Dick makes superior metal steels of varying prices based on finish, cut, length, and handle material. (Here, scroll past the diamonds.)
Hold the steel so that the tip is straight down on a cutting board or kitchen towl, something that won't slip. Put your knife edge on the steel directly (but gently), so that it's at 90 degrees. Tip your knife so that it's half that, or 45 degrees, then half of that angle again--that will put you at 22 degrees or so, just where you want to be for the vast majority of knives from American and European manufacturers. (Angles and edges are different on Japanese knives in most cases and many Japanese knives should not be steeled with metal.)
From PCD--they're succinct: Start with the heel of the blade contacting the steel as close to the handle as possible with the tip pointing straight out away from you. Pull the blade back towards you and down the shaft of the steel. The motion should end with the tip of the blade in contact with the steel towards the bottom of the shaft. Switch sides and do the exact same thing on the other side. Because you are holding the steel vertically you can see that you are using the same angle on both sides. Repeat about 4 - 5 times. Gentle pressure is all that is needed. You don't want to grind your knife. If you hear an almost musical sound, the pressure is perfect.
That's all there is to it. If you do it slowly and watch what you're doing you can maintain your angle without trouble. As your body gets comfortable with how it should feel your speed will increase naturally. It is not necessary to try to be fast. It's just a matter of being aware of what you're doing while you're doing it.
Bill Pearson
TVWBB Super Fan
Kevin I have a set of Shun knives with the Shun steel, what do you mean that they should'nt be steeled with metal?
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
Perhaps I should have said 'many' instead of 'most--though I do think it's most. Due to the differences in the steel alloy and in the manufacturing methods between Japanese knives and those from Europe or the US, metal steels can be inappropriate or downright bad for Japanese blades. Japanese makers offer specific recommendations for their knives. Due to the harder steel used, many do not make steels of any type for their knives, instead recommending and/or expecting the knives to be stone sharpened. Others make steels for the various lines they sell, be they metal, diamond or ceramic. If you use a line from a maker that also makes a steel for use with that line, use it.
Note that the angles of Japanese knives are more acute. Many Japanese knives are ground on one side only, or ground on one side acutely and made concave on the other. Either of these require a different approach, obviously.
If your Shun knives are from the Classic or Alton lines they are ground on both sides but at a tighter angle, 16?. That's the angle that should be used. Using the above method, start by holding your blade perpindicular to the steel (90?) then halve that (45); halve again (22) then again (11). Then increase the angle to halfway between where you are (11) and where you just were (22) and you'll be close to 16. You can also make a template out of a piece of cardboard using a protractor and copy the angle from it. Always watch what you are doing closely so you get used to the visual of what the angle looks like when your knife is being properly held. With a little time and practice you'll get used to how it is supposed to look and feel.
Note that the angles of Japanese knives are more acute. Many Japanese knives are ground on one side only, or ground on one side acutely and made concave on the other. Either of these require a different approach, obviously.
If your Shun knives are from the Classic or Alton lines they are ground on both sides but at a tighter angle, 16?. That's the angle that should be used. Using the above method, start by holding your blade perpindicular to the steel (90?) then halve that (45); halve again (22) then again (11). Then increase the angle to halfway between where you are (11) and where you just were (22) and you'll be close to 16. You can also make a template out of a piece of cardboard using a protractor and copy the angle from it. Always watch what you are doing closely so you get used to the visual of what the angle looks like when your knife is being properly held. With a little time and practice you'll get used to how it is supposed to look and feel.
j biesinger
TVWBB Platinum Member
thanks for the heads up. I just picked up two new japanese knives a Brieto Nakiri (molybdenum) and a Togiharu gyutou (a blend of high-grade Chromium and Molybdenum Inox steel). Both were ground with a 70/30 edge. I guess I better do a bit of research before using them.
btw, for those that might be interested in japanese steel, www.korin.com is running a 15% off sale through 12/31!
Kevin,
In your post about sharpening knives above you say that you should steel almost every time that you use your knives. Is that based on the amount of use for each time? I guess what I am asking is if there is a rule of thumb about how much use before sharpening? For example, if I am cutting up a cucumber and a tomato and previously used the knife to cut lettuce or some other vegetable, do I use a regular steel prior to cutting or is that excessive? I know that I should steel my knives more often and I am trying to get a feel for what the frequency should be. I would say that I use my knives in a light duty capacity.
Lance
In your post about sharpening knives above you say that you should steel almost every time that you use your knives. Is that based on the amount of use for each time? I guess what I am asking is if there is a rule of thumb about how much use before sharpening? For example, if I am cutting up a cucumber and a tomato and previously used the knife to cut lettuce or some other vegetable, do I use a regular steel prior to cutting or is that excessive? I know that I should steel my knives more often and I am trying to get a feel for what the frequency should be. I would say that I use my knives in a light duty capacity.
Lance
K Kruger
TVWBB 1-Star Olympian
It is more about steeling for each knife 'session', unless the session is particularly long or there is significant hard cutting/chopping going on, in which case you'd steel again.
In your example, I'd steel at the beginning of the session, prior to cutting the lettuce, and the knife should be fine for the cuke and tomato. The knife would get put away then steeled again the next day (or whenever). But let's say you were then moving from tomatoes to carrots then on to onions and shallots. If you weren't doing much of anything the knife might well be fine thoughout (if you get used to steeling often enough and get used to how the knife feels you might well be able to tell if it needs it sooner); then again, were you doing a lot, especially if there were major chopping of hard vegs happening, you'd lkely steel again after that and before continuing.
In your example, I'd steel at the beginning of the session, prior to cutting the lettuce, and the knife should be fine for the cuke and tomato. The knife would get put away then steeled again the next day (or whenever). But let's say you were then moving from tomatoes to carrots then on to onions and shallots. If you weren't doing much of anything the knife might well be fine thoughout (if you get used to steeling often enough and get used to how the knife feels you might well be able to tell if it needs it sooner); then again, were you doing a lot, especially if there were major chopping of hard vegs happening, you'd lkely steel again after that and before continuing.
Kevin and Ray,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I am going to make a conscious effort to steel my knives much more often. The trick will be convincing my wife that it needs to be done.
Lance
PS Today is my one year anniversary as a TVWB member! Last year I was in Iraq and enjoying 70 degree days and the first snow in Baghdad in over 50 years.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I am going to make a conscious effort to steel my knives much more often. The trick will be convincing my wife that it needs to be done.
Lance
PS Today is my one year anniversary as a TVWB member! Last year I was in Iraq and enjoying 70 degree days and the first snow in Baghdad in over 50 years.
Teddy J.
TVWBB Pro
Just returned from a cruise on Monarch of the Seas (Royal Caribbean International line), and guess what the chefs were using to slice the roasts for dinner? The 14" Fibrox granton slicer.
Too funny that I even recognized the knife, and then even funnier when the guy saw I was more interested in the knife than the leg of lamb he was slicing for me.
Too funny that I even recognized the knife, and then even funnier when the guy saw I was more interested in the knife than the leg of lamb he was slicing for me.
Ed Cardoza
TVWBB Pro
Kevin, I have been using your method of sharpening my knives and must say, what a huge difference it has made. It sure make slicing so much easier and cleaner with a good edge.
Thanks for the great tip...
Thanks for the great tip...
Steve Whiting
TVWBB All-Star
Mitch, Was the slicing being done at your table or did you get a tour of the galley? The reason I asked is that the wife and I took a Royal Caribbean cruise to Alaska this past summer and I dont remember having the opportunity to see what knife was being used. Its cool to hear the Chef was using the 14" Fibrox granton slicer. That knife is next in my purchase plan.