Christmas Dilemma, turkey and rib roast possible?


 
E

Erik G

TVWBB Pro
I plan on smoking a turkey and rib roast for Christmas. Here's the problem, i normally cook my turkey's at high heat (325-350) and I would prefer to smoke the rib roast (my first time on the WSM, anybody have good/bad experiences?) slow n low (225-250), so what do I do? I would also like to make some au jus (anybody have any good recipes?) and imagine needing to use some drippings from the rib roast. If I have water in the water pan, I would not be able to use the drippings. If I don't have water in the water pan, both the turkey and rib roast drippings would combine and that doesn't seem like good au jus. One more thing, we have a few people coming who do not eat beef, therefore the turkey must be on the top rack and the rib roast will be on the bottom (don't want rib roast drippings on the turkey). Need help guys, thanks again.

Erik
 
There's no reason to cook low-and-slow on a tender roast like the rib roast. I cook mine at 325-350. The temp will depend on how much meat you want rare or more cooked. A lower temp for more time (say 300-325) will give you more medium meat, with rare in the very middle. A faster/higher temp cook will give you more rare meat. So, I say cook them at the same temp.

However, I don't really think you want turkey drippings on top of your rib roast. You might be able to rig up a small drip pan under the top grate to catch the drippings from the meat on the top rack. I don't know if you'll have enough clearance for the meat on the bottom rack. Try it and see.

As for the au jus, unless you can segregate the drippings like I mentioned above, then you'll need to make au jus w/o the beef drippings. Someone recently (kevin kruger?) posted a nice recipe for au jus down in the recipes section.
 
That's reason enough for a 2nd smoker!

I did a rib roast recently and cooked it around 325 lid.

I stuck a foil pan underneath it filled with beef broth, celery, onions, garlic, and thyme (I covered the pan with foil and punctured drain holes to catch drippings).

It was a smallish roast(4.75 lbs) and took around two hours.

Worth the effort.

Get a 2nd smoker!
 
Thanks for the responses. Craig, I agree, it is Xmas time, hint hint. I'll tell the family it's from Craig in Orlando.

Erik
 
Hmm. Kind of rock and a hard place. (I'm almost back home, btw, having just come from your neck of the woods with stop in Boston...)

You can low/slow a rib roast or do it as a high heat cook. At higher heat you will have more of a range of doneness, i.e., portions of the roast closest to the edges and ends will be more cooked than central portions. With a low/slow doneness is significantly more even throughout.

I am not often driven to cook two meats one above the other. Usually, if I do mix two, it's combos like chicken pieces and sausages or the like, not whole or large roasts. There are two main reasons for this: First, I make rubs specific to the meat(s) I'm cooking and the sauce(s) that will be accompaniments and do not like the flavored drippings from one affecting the other below; and second, I make decisions on how the cook is going, doneness and (if you'll forgive me), 'existential' questions based on both visual cues and smell, and the combo of two differently rubbed meats throws the olfactory cues into question. That said, I know that many combine cooks all the time and have no issue with it at all. But were it me, I'd likely cook the turkey on the kettle and the beef in the WSM (or vice versa, depending on sizes). Barring that possibility, I'd be inclined to cook one or the other in the oven. Barring that, I'd likely cook the turkey first, immediately segue into the beef cook when the turkey was done (I'd do the beef at high heat in this case so as to keep the cook time shorter), and the beef would cook while the turkey rested, well wrapped to keep the heat up (the skin would soften but oh, well). Or, I'd do the turkey at high heat in the morning, segue to a low-heat beef cook after, rest the turkey 20 min or so, then probably prep the turkey for reheating by either removing the meat from the bones and cooling it (likely) or cutting up bone-in (less likely) and cooling. Just before the beef was done I'd reheat the turkey in the oven, panned with a stock-butter mix, covered, or I might package it in foil with the stock-butter mix and stick in the WSM to reheat under the beef during its last minutes of cooking and during its rest.

The jus issue: I cannot say that I am a huge fan of drippings-from-the-WSM-based sauces. Though a little added to a sauce might work out fine, I find the flavors don't work for me that well. I'm more likely to smoke or cook trimmings for a little while (rubbed) then remove them and add them to the sauces I'm making or to flavor a stock from which I'll build a sauce or two. I find that drippings that have been accumulating from the beginning of the cook are just too, well, potent for me, and not in a good way. For something like a beef rib roast where the trimming is often nil, I'll stick a a couple meaty neck bones (rubbed identically to the roast) on the lower rack and let them smoke and cook a little while but then extract them through the door and get them into what ever I've decided my sauce approach is going to be. I'm usually looking for good connection between the sauce and the roast but I want this based mostly on beef with a minor rub connection and still less of a smoke connection.

For some ideas on the making of jus, see here.
 
Kevin, since I do not have a kettle and really really do not want to mess with my grill (it's raining and about 38 degrees outside), i've decided to smoke the turkey and throw the rib roast in the oven. Honestly, I was a little skeptical about smoking a rib roast, it just doesn't sound appealing. Do you cook your rib roast a certain way in the oven Kevin? I have several ways of roasting it, but I am thinking about searing the meat on the stove and throwing it in the oven with a temp of around 225-250. do you see any issues with that? Any opinion? Thanks again for being ever so dependable. And the au jus recipe looks great, thanks for the link.
 
I prefer making rib roasts in the WSM vs the oven, but I'm not trying to "smoke" a rib roast. I run the WSM like a coal-fired oven at 300ish degrees. The taste is much better in my opinion. I like your idea of searing the outside before putting it in the over (or WSM for that matter).

I'm curious to see Kevin's advice on temps. I personally think 225-250 is too low, but that's because I prefer some rarer meat in the middle of the roast for my Dad, who prefers his beef to be cooked just enough so it doesn't twitch on his plate.

Whatever you end up doing, I hope it works out well!
 
Erik/Ed--

When I cook rib roasts in the oven I do one of two things (usually) and which I do depends on time, type of rub I'm making, and how I want the internal finish of the roast to be.

Low/slow takes longer than high/fast cooks so that is the time issue. Paste rubs are better suited to higher heat cooks as this allows for better cooking/caramelizing of the rub. Dry rubs can be used irrespective of cook temp. Low heat cooks allow for a very even level of doneness from the edges and ends of the roast to the center. For Ed's dad, e.g., cooking the roast low/slow to an internal of 122-125 would make the slice of roast rare virtually from end to end. A temp of 132-135 should get you med-rare throughout, 142-145 medium.

The same finish temps can be the rough targets for roasts cooked at high heat but because you can expect a rise during the time the roast rests then the targets to actually remove the roast from the oven or cooker should be 7-10 degrees less; the temps should rise as residual cooking takes place and the juices redistribute during the resting period. High heat cooks will give you more of a range of doneness though. E.g., for a roast targeted for medium rare (132-135) and cooked at, say, 325-350, you'd pull the roast out of the cooker at ~125 and allow it to rest. The ends of the roast and those portions of the meats closest to the edges will be more cooked. As you move toward the center of the roast the meat will be progressively less cooked.

So, if I am looking for an evenly cooked roast I will cook at 200-225. For an oven cook or grill/WSM cook, yes, I do sear the outside of the roast in pan in a little hot oil. Then I'll apply a dry rub, place on a rack in a roasting pan (if using an oven) and roast. I might add aromatics to the pan and then will deglaze the pan later and finish the jus. For a grill or WSM cook I usually just rub after searing then place directly on the grate and do not collect dripping (I make jus with other drippings or simply make a sauce or two--like a creamy horseradish and/or a Dijon-cherry or whatever).

If I am looking for a range of doneness then I might make a fresh herb/fresh garlic/dry spice paste rub and simply cook at high heat (on a rack in a pan in the oven; on the grate if grill of WSM) and do the bulk of the cooking at ~325-345 with either a start or finish at ~400 to boost caramelization.

(One can low/slow effectively on a rotis using a paste rub or dry and forgoing searing because one can cheat the coals over to practically directly under the rotis during the last several minutes of cooking, effectively adding a searing stage.)
 
Hi Kevin,

It's been a while. Hope everything is well with you. I'm doing my annual Christmas fresh ham smoke today. Thing has cooked pretty fast after a slow start. Due to my schedule I will smoke it today and then reheat the two halves at two different locations later this weekend.

Anyway, I am going to cook a four bone rib roast, approx 6 -7 lbs, in the oven for dinner Sunday night. I see what you are saying about cooking temps for doneness levels. About how long should I expect to cook at 350 if I want a finish temp of around 140? Also, what type of dry rub do you prefer? I was thinking some combination of black pepper and garlic. Ever use any kind of a horseradish slather?

Thanks and have a Merry Christmas.
 
Hi Ken. All is well here though I'm a bit encumbered with business issues today when I'd rather be cooking.

I recall that you do fresh ham for Christmas. I trust the cook and the dinners will go quite well.

I'd expect probably 2-2.5 hours--could be a bit more--depending on the size/thickness of the roast. If you'd like a final temp of 140 then consider pulling at 130-133 or so.

I'll note here (as I should have noted above) two important issues that Chris also points out in his recipes for rib roasts: Tie the roast (Chris has good simple instructions) and allow the roasts to come to room temp before cooking, 90-120 min is plenty.

I've not done a horseradish slather, preferring to make a horseradish sauce, but I have made rubs that include dry powdered horseradish. Black pepper and garlic are pretty much givens for me, and I also like crushed green peppercorns, granulated onion, thyme and marjoram, powdered bay (just a little), sometimes a little crushed celery seed and very small quantities of ground clove and/or ginger. For paste rubs I often use both fresh and dried versions of items that are available both ways, e.g., fresh garlic and granulated, fresh parsley, fresh and dried thyme, fresh and dried marjoram, black pepper, green pepper, granulated onion, a little fresh or dried sage, maybe, and pinches of powdered bay, ground clove and ground ginger. Any or all of these items can be included or not. For all-fresh or predominently fresh-based rubs I tend to apply fairly heavily; I use a somewhat lighter touch for fresh/dry blended rubs, still lighter for all-dry rubs.

Good luck with your ham and beef, have great dinners and a terrific holiday.
 
Kevin, thanks for the response. After going through numerous rib roasts recipes, I can't find anything appealing. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Please keep in mind that my family and I do not like horseradish in the least bit and I prefer using dry rubs (except for fresh garlic, and ginger). I looked at the ingredients above and have no clue what to use and when do use what.

Erik
 
Get a single oxtail or meaty beef neckbone. If only available in packages buy a package, reserve one, and package the others and freeze them for future use.

Have the roast at room temp, tied. Make the rub.*

Cut one onion into quarters or sixths and reserve in a bowl (no need to peel). Add to it a 3-inch piece of peeled carrot cut in half and a 3-inch piece of celery cut in half. Drizzle all lightly with oil; toss to coat. Sprinkle very lightly with salt; toss to distribute but do not add more. (It's easy to let the salt get out of hand. Since flavors and liquids will concentrate the salt proportion can end up too high by the time all is done. Be aware of this.)

If possible, use your roasting pan to sear the roast; if not, use a pan large enough to accommodate it. Heat the roasting pan over med-high heat (two burners if possible if a regular pan--if non-stick then heat it over med heat. When the pan is hot add about 2 T oil and swirl the pan so that the oil even coats it.

When the oil is shimmering and just about to smoke add the roast and sear it, turning it as needed, so that all sides are seared. You'll likely have to periodically hold the roast in position with tongs, especially to sear the ends. Sear the oxtail or neckbone at the same time. This should take about 6-8 min total. Add the oxtail to the onion mix; remove the roast to a cutting board or sheetpan, bone side up.

Pour off the excess oil in the pan and place the rack in it. Scatter the onion mix under the rack. Sprinkle the rub lightly on the oxtail and add it to the pan.

Salt and pepper the roast on the bone side. Be a little generous with the salt and quite generous with the pepper. Sprinkle on the rub evenly but not heavily. Flip the roast to bone side down and put it on the rack. Salt, pepper and rub the upside now.

Place the roast in your preheated oven, stick a remote probe, if using, in the thickest part, and roast till it hits your target internal. If you are cooking at a low temp there shouldn't be sn issue with dripping burning but take a peek now and again. For a higher heat cook (or if it looked like burning might occur on a lower heat cook) you'd let the roast cook about 20 min then add a splash of water to the pan every so often to prevent this.

To keep this simple, go with the beef-chicken stock combo as a base for the jus as noted on the link I posted above. (Where I live, low-sodium chicken is available any way you want it but low-salt beef is only available in the larger aseptic packages. Use the low-salt versions of each.) Make the jus base about halfway into the roast cooking process. When the jus base is simmering, remove the oxtail from the roasting pan and add it to the jus pot. Return the oxtail to the jus pot after you've strained out the solids. Remove it before serving the jus.

When the roast is done remove the pan from the oven; move the roast to a platter to rest, tented with foil. Put the pan on the stove over a med-high burner and add a few ladles of your jus base to the pan to deglaze it, scraping up any browned bits and allowing them to dissolve. Strain the contents of the pan into a fat separator or a large cup measure. Allow the fat to rise to the top and separate it out. Mix the drippings into the jus base.

Cut the roast off the bones, place it on a cutting board and slice thickly. Add any juices from the platter on which it rested to the jus pot. Platter the roast slices, pour the jus into small cups; serve.


* You can salt and pepper only but to me that's a missed opportunity. Searing and the roasting process creates dozens of flavors which can be highlighted and complemented by a simple rub.

The salt and black pepper are applied separately here, first, so the rub contains neither.

Try this:

1 T granulated garlic

1 T crushed green peppercorns, optional

2 t granulated onion

2 t dried thyme

1 t dried marjoram

1/2 t ground bay leaves

1/2 t ground celery seed, optional

1/4 t ground ginger

1/8 t ground clove

Mix very well.
 
For my au jus, I bought some soup bones (the butcher said it's from the elboe) that contains two small bones (fist size) surrounded by two pieces of fat and I believe cartilage (no meat whatsoever). Hopefully this will work. Should I remove the fat from the bone? I know it'll add flavor but I definitely don't want a fatty au jus (maybe I'll just skim before I serve as mentioned). Now with the temperature, is there a big difference between setting the oven at 200 or at 250? I would like a more even level of doneness (a nice medium from outside to the middle of the roast) and timing isn't much of an issue (i'll just wake up earlier if needed) How long should I expect the roast to cook? I bought a 3 bone roast (the bone was removed from the roast but tied back in) weighing roughly 6.75 lbs. Thanks again for all your help Kevin, much much appreciated.
 
If you're planning on the mixed stock approach to the jus what you bought is fine. While, yes, fat adds flavor much of this can be obtained by searing the fat, so feel free to trim off much of it if you wish.

Since you're planning to start by searing I'd recommend the 200 temp as it will give you the best shot at an even finish. My guess is a 4.5-slightly over 5-hour oven time.

Have fun and enjoy your dinner.
 
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