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Doug D
03-29-2008, 11:15 AM
WWW = Whole White Wheat

I had come up with a WWW dough that I thought was pretty good a couple years ago, but over time, it has proven a bit fickle. Not in the taste, but in the handling. Even after following my pizza waiter's suggestion to make it up 24 hours in advance and do a slow ferment in the refrigerator, I was never quite sure, week to week, if I would end up with a large thin pizza or a medium thick one-- it depended on what the pizza maker was able to do with it. And it was especially frustrating since I had come to exercise a great degree of precision on the ingredient ratios.

Last week, after the dough was especially uncooperative, our waiter and I had an in-depth talk about what steps I might take to remedy things once and for all. Armed with his tips, I digested everything I could in a day's time from the Specialty-Grain forum at pizzamaking.com. A member there, named Charbo, seemed to be very familiar with the King Arthur Whole White Wheat flour I had been using, so I adapted a couple of his/her recipes into what appears to have been very successful for the first try at a new dough.

From my readings, I knew I needed to do a few things differently. One, raise the hydration, two, rest before kneading, and three, knead less. I was really afraid that I was going to have a sticky mess with the increased water, but it didn't turn out to be the case.

This is for two 400 gm. dough balls that each made one 16" thin-crust pizza skin:

375 gm. King Arthur Whole White Wheat Flour
325 ml. water
60 gm. vital wheat gluten
1 tsp. instant dry yeast
1 tsp. sugar
1/2 rounded tsp. salt (DC kosher)
1 Tbl. olive oil

Additional (~2 Tbl.) King Arthur Whole White Wheat Flour for kneading

Combine well all ingredients except oil in mixer bowl, and let rest for 30 minutes. Add oil and work into dough until incorporated (I used one of my PVC pork pulling gloves). Mount dough hook on mixer and knead on #2 for 2-3 minutes (I thought the dough would hang up on the hook more than it did, due to the high hydration, but it didn't). Remove dough and split into two evenly-weighted pieces. On floured board, knead each piece for about another minute each (I used only about 1 Tbl. of the bench flour for each). Form into balls and refrigerate covered for 24 hours.

As expected, they didn't rise as much as they did with my old recipe-- I was using 1/3 the yeast and giving it only an extra tsp. of sugar-- but they had a look and feel to them that told me I was on the right track.

I was disappointed I wasn't paying closer attention and didn't see the the pizza maker working the dough, even though we were sitting right across from the big kitchen window. But I gave him the big "Well???" sign, and he smiled broadly and gave a big thumbs up. When the pizza came out, it was clear I was on the road to success, as we had a full 16" pie with a razor thin crust. The waiter sat down with us and cut himself half a slice to try. We agreed it was good, and the only other thing we should have done was alert the oven tender. He gauges doneness somewhat by edge color, and didn't recognize our pie since it was so stretched out. As a result, the slightly darker raw dough color led him to pull the pie out about 2 minutes early.

I tweaked the ingredients into the Expanded Pizza Dough Calculator at pizzamaking.com to see what my percentages were:

Flour (100%):390.53 g* | 13.78 oz | 0.86 lbs
Water (83.5%): 326.09 g | 11.5 oz | 0.72 lbs
IDY (.8%):3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (.5%): 1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Olive Oil (3.5%):13.67 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.04 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Sugar (1.05%):4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Vital Wheat Gluten (15.5%): 60.53 g | 2.14 oz | 0.13 lbs | 7.29 tbsp | 0.46 cups
Total (204.85%):800 g | 28.22 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 400 g | 14.11 oz | 0.88 lbs

* includes the bench flour (2 Tbsp.)

Paul H
03-31-2008, 01:37 AM
Doug, why add wheat gluten??? Is it to add more protein to the flour?

Doug D
03-31-2008, 05:12 AM
It does add protein, with several benefits. From Pete-zza at pizzamaking.com:

"A dough made with high-gluten flour using sound kneading procedures will produce a more developed gluten structure that can better retain the gases of fermentation, and for a longer period of time. The finished crust will also be chewier than when a lower-protein flour is used, and it will have a slightly darker color and a bit more flavor. A high-gluten dough is easier to shape and stretch (because of the more highly developed gluten structure), and can yield a slight increase in oven spring, and will also tolerate higher hydration levels (63% or better) and longer fermentation times, usually around three days (cold fermentation)."

In bread baking with whole grain flours, it mainly improves rise and structure; for pizza crust, the bigger improvement is more in the dough handling.

Bryan S
06-02-2008, 06:35 PM
Doug, A question for you about the VWG. I bought a bag of the KAWWW and on occasion mix it in with the unbleached white I use for my pizza dough, along with some rye flour. I'm curious to the amount of vital wheat gluten used. I can remember Peter saying a tsp or 2 but you used almost a 1/2 cup. My box of Hodgson Mill Vital Wheat Gluten reccomends 4 tsp per loaf of bread. Just curious to the amount you use. Thanks.

Doug D
06-03-2008, 05:24 AM
Note that the recipe is for two 15-16" pizza crust doughs, so that's really just under 1/4 cup per. I based it pretty much on the White Whole Wheat thread on the pizza forum, and, relative to what I had used in the past, it didn't seem excessive. Are Peter and HM talking about 100% whole grain doughs, or ones with just a percentage? That could be the difference.

All I know is mine has undergone 10 weeks of real-world pizzeria testing, and the results have been consistently good every time. I need to video my pizza guy working the dough to show how well it handles, and also his shaping method, which is somewhat different from the lady on uKnead.

Bryan S
06-03-2008, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Doug D:
Note that the recipe is for two 15-16" pizza crust doughs, so that's really just under 1/4 cup per. I based it pretty much on the White Whole Wheat thread on the pizza forum, and, relative to what I had used in the past, it didn't seem excessive. Are Peter and HM talking about 100% whole grain doughs, or ones with just a percentage? That could be the difference.

All I know is mine has undergone 10 weeks of real-world pizzeria testing, and the results have been consistently good every time. I need to video my pizza guy working the dough to show how well it handles, and also his shaping method, which is somewhat different from the lady on uKnead.
Yeah, I went over and saw he was using 4TBs - 1/4 cup of TVWG per dough ball. I just never seen that much used is all. Yep, use what works for ya. I'm going to make this up, although I'll cut back on TVWG just to see what happens.
As far as the video, Yeah she does it different than how I was taught. We kind of did it that way when stretching out dough for bolis. I have only seen one person here in a local pizza shop use that technique. When I do mine I do the finger tip press out but then use both hands/palms on the dough and work it out into a circle on a floured surface. Right hand pinky side up against the rim while the left hand spins the dough. Once it gets a little size to it I put the dough over both fists and stretch it, turn it a little stretch, turn....... out to 16"That's how most shops do it here in PA.

Doug D
06-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Bryan S:
I'm going to make this up, although I'll cut back on TVWG just to see what happens.
Probably need to adjust the hydration a little, or work in a little more bench flour.

I have stopped using the mixer altogether on this. I'm now mixing and resting everything but the oil for 15 minutes, working in the oil by hand and resting another 15 minutes, then hand kneading for only a few minutes at most until the Tbl. of bench flour is worked in to each piece. Shape into balls, and ferment 24 hours. Don't be afraid to try it with the full VWG, it really works well-- thin, tender, but with a nice crisp crunch (at least in my pizza place's oven).

Bryan S
06-03-2008, 01:11 PM
Ok Doug I reran the #'s for 2 - 16 oz dough balls and less VWG and more salt. I put in 2 TBS of TVWG just to see if that will work. It's doing the 30 min rest right now. When I make my NY Style dough I do a 20 min rest so I'm used to this step. I did sift the flour. I do that with all my pizza dough, just habit. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-2/947456/KAWWWPizzaDough.jpg

Balled up and in the fridge. Tomorrow I cook.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-2/947456/KAWWWPizzaDough001.jpg

Paul H
06-04-2008, 10:42 AM
Bryan, do you knead with the mixer or do you hand knead? If you use the mixer what setting and how long??

Bryan S
06-04-2008, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by paul h:
Bryan, do you knead with the mixer or do you hand knead? If you use the mixer what setting and how long??
Paul, In my first post in the NY Style pizza dough thread is pretty much how I do em all. I always sift the flour, mix with the KA till just comes together, rest 20 min, and then knead for 4-5 min.

Doug, No go on the 2 TBS of VWG. I was able to stretch it out to 10-11" before it would tear apart. I'll try again sometime using 1/4 cup of VWG.

Doug D
06-04-2008, 05:24 PM
Your second picture suggested to me you might end up with a problem. I would like to have seen the dough ball after the ferment, but before the shaping. When I'm working the dough by hand to knead and form into a ball, I am basically using the technique shown at the mid-point of the uKnead video "Shaping the Dough Ball (Part 7 of 17)", for just a few minutes. Once the Tbl. of bench flour is worked into each piece, I have a very smooth ball that's just still a bit tacky. After 24 hours in the refrigerator-- I just place both balls into an oblong Ziplock storage box, on waxed paper-- the appearance is that of the silky smooth-surfaced ball just like the pizzeria's regular flour ones. I'll try to take some pics tomorrow nite and Friday nite of the dough both before fermenting and after.

Bryan S
06-04-2008, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Doug D:
Your second picture suggested to me you might end up with a problem. I would like to have seen the dough ball after the ferment, but before the shaping. When I'm working the dough by hand to knead and form into a ball, I am basically using the technique shown at the mid-point of the uKnead video "Shaping the Dough Ball (Part 7 of 17)", for just a few minutes. Once the Tbl. of bench flour is worked into each piece, I have a very smooth ball that's just still a bit tacky. After 24 hours in the refrigerator-- I just place both balls into an oblong Ziplock storage box, on waxed paper-- the appearance is that of the silky smooth-surfaced ball just like the pizzeria's regular flour ones. I'll try to take some pics tomorrow nite and Friday nite of the dough both before fermenting and after.
Doug, I get the silky smooth on all my Ny Style dough balls, but could not get it with the KAWWW. I had a big problem with it sticking to my hands when trying to knead it out. I knew when I put it into the bowl that it was trouble. Just stuck to me like glue. I'll try the WWW again, but why am I doing this? I'm just curious that's all. I have to be honest, I don't like whole wheat anything. It's just too sharp/bitter of a taste for me. Rye I love, Whole wheat, just ain't my cup of tea. I have had that box of Vital Wheat Gluten for about 2 years now and bought that bag of flour trying to like it but....... I'll give it a go again, but really I'm just not a whole wheat person. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif But that said I want to make this work. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gary Bramley
06-05-2008, 05:41 AM
What's the difference between using vital wheat gluten, and a spring wheat with a high protien content, like KA Sir Lancelot?

Q'n, Golf'n & Grill'n.... too many choices!
Gary

Doug D
06-05-2008, 07:34 AM
In my case, I was looking for 100% whole grain flour that produced pizza dough as close to, in handling, cooking and taste as regular pizza dough. Using the WWW with the VWG gave me that.

Looks like it works, though:

http://www.pizzamaniac.com/index.php/archives/category/pizza-making/

Bryan S
06-05-2008, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Gary Bramley:
and a spring wheat with a high protien content, like KA Sir Lancelot?

That's the premier pizza flour for a regular oven, 550 degrees or less. For those that have wood fired pizza ovens that go 750 + then Caputo 00 flour is the best choice. As Doug said, when using a whole wheat flour, Vital wheat gluten must be used. Whole wheat flour is lacking in gluten, and harder to stretch out, thus the addition of the gluten. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gary Bramley
06-06-2008, 07:43 AM
http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Q'n, Golf'n & Grill'n.... too many choices!
Gary

Doug D
06-10-2008, 11:11 AM
Pics as promised here (http://picasaweb.google.com/dougdspics/PizzaMaking?authkey=elnA_5a2ab4). Pizza guy started before camera rolling, so I didn't get the first part or the throw, but you can see how well it stretches without tearing.

Bryan S
06-11-2008, 04:10 PM
Now that's how you stretch out a pizza dough. Nice pics, and video Doug. But... no pic of the baked pie? http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Doug D
06-11-2008, 05:34 PM
I was too hungry to think about photos after the pie arrived. I'll add that after this Friday. Of course, it will mean eating the Super Special Waiter's Choice Combo (add basil)*, twice in a row, but I think I can manage. For the greater good, you know...

*described here (http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3980069052/m/5560002515?r=2120015125#2120015125)

Paul H
06-18-2008, 03:09 PM
Ok, my last dough was worse then the one before. The first one ripped. I let the dough warm to room temp. So this time I took it right from the frig . It still tore. This was after a 4 day ferment in frig. So, I thought I'd try one dough with only a one day ferment. The last dough was also hard to stretch out. If this doesn't work I think I'll add some sugar to the recipe. One question, I usually activate the yeast(ady) in warm water then add this to the dry ingredients after a five minute wait. Is it better to add the yeast in with the rest of the dry ingredients then just add warm water when I mix? Would this help my extensibility and keep the dough from tearing http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Doug D
06-18-2008, 05:43 PM
I use instant ("bread machine") yeast, which is made to be mixed in with the dry ingredients. Regular ADY is supposed to be proofed. I nuke my water for about 15 seconds to bring it to about 110. Also, dough is going to tear from time to time-- just depends on how much, how often. As good as my pizza guy is, he still gets the occasional hole, even on his regular dough-- he just patches them up on the board. My dough comes out of the refrigerator about 5:30 and starts getting worked about 60-90 minutes later.

Paul H
06-19-2008, 01:59 AM
So if I proof the yeast and add sugar will that maybe keep the dough from tearing and make it more stretchable?

Doug D
06-19-2008, 05:09 AM
My guess would be your problem lies more in protein level or hydration. My old dough recipe would stretch without tearing, but it wouldn't always stretch enough-- the pizza guy would have to bring out the rolling pin, and even then sometimes I'd end up with only a 13" pizza, instead of a 16". I upped the hydration from 67% to 83%, and am using almost exactly the same amount of gluten I was before, and now it works great. I used to make the mistake of thinking if the dough was too sticky when I was kneading it, it was too wet. I now realize that resting it before kneading solves that with the higher hydration.

Paul H
06-19-2008, 06:02 AM
Doug, will try one step at a time. Will increase the protein level by adding more gluten. If that doesn't work I'll try the hydration. By the way I use about two ounces of whole wheat flour. The total weight of the flour is a little over 15 ounces so were talking about 10% is whole wheat.

Doug D
06-19-2008, 07:26 AM
If you're only using 2 oz of WW flour, I think gluten may not help you, unless you're using a low-protein regular flour. Reading your base recipe in the other thread, I would try bumping up the water a couple ounces, and a little more yeast and oil. Get it all mixed, formed into a big ball, and cover the bowl with a towel for 30 minutes. Then come back and split it into whatever size pieces you want, and just hand knead each for a few minutes before putting in the refigerator.

Paul H
06-19-2008, 10:01 AM
Thanks Doug. Am getting ready to make a dough ball now. Will try your suggestions.

Paul H
06-20-2008, 02:48 PM
Doug, SUCCESS!!!! I added extra water and a little bit more yeast. The ball didn't form as well in the bowl when mixed. I had to add a little extra flour. Even when kneading it by hand it was sort of sticky and never really firmed. She sat in the frig for 24 hours and I cooked the pizza on the grill. Nice crust. End crust was thick, center was thin, no rips or tears while stretching. Good taste. So I'm on the right track. I think. Thanks again

Doug D
06-20-2008, 03:58 PM
There is a bit of a paradox-- the mix of dry ingredients, water, and oil become relatively more sticky as you work in the additional bench flour. That was what would mess me up in the old days-- I would think the dough was too wet, so I would work in more flour to firm it up, but it would become even stickier the more I did. Resting dough is a valuable technique-- I even find that switching off between doughballs is preferable to finishing kneading one, and then starting on the other.