Ribs - Questions from the latest smoke


 
M

Matt J. (Mattski)

New member
Hey folks,
I did another batch of spare ribs on the wsm last night, and they came out really good - my guests were really pleased with them, and I thought there were in the top two that I've done. This was the first time I did a 3-2-1 type cook, and also the first time I used my new Maverick ET-732 (love it!). Couple of notes/questions:

1) My lid thermometer read 260 on average, but the maverick was a consistent 50-75 degrees hotter on the surface of the grill. I have done excellent ribs assuming the 260 was accurate and leaving them on for 4.5 hours. This time though, the ribs were a touch dry in some parts. I altered the method to a 2.5-1.5-.5 instead, but even with the shorter time, there was still some dryness. I noticed when I went to foil that the top of the racks looked a bit dried out. Is 2.5-1.5-.5 too long at 330 avg surface temp? When people talk about 3-2-1, I'm assuming they are talking about the surface and not the lid temp?

2) I did a minion method to start (first time since I just acquired a charcoal chimney), and man, that sucker was hot. With all bottom vents closed, I could not convince this thing to get below 290-300 (per the maverick). It was about 65 degrees and sunny with the smoker in sunlight. Is there a good way to get the temp down other than the vents? What am I doing wrong?

3) Smoke wood - I notice a big increase in temp when the smoke wood goes up in flames. Any tips on controlling this? Due to the way the charcoal burned(slowly due to what I think was the minion method), I noticed that I had smoke going almost the whole time. Of course, with the vents closed almost the whole way, I think it choked the smoke a lot.

Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
Hi Matt.

Your problems are coming from the lid temp gague. For the record, I too had this very same problem, and here's what I recommend.

Try to put the Maverick below the top grate, and fire up the cooker. Do not put on any meat yet. See if both the lid gague and the Maverick runs the same way, when there is no meat on the grates yet. Mine did run very closely...about 2-3 degrees difference between the 2.

Once you stabilize the temps around 225, or any temp between 225-250 degrees, then put up the meat. My lid gague went down to 160 degrees, once the meat was on, but the Maverick stayed at 225, which it was my desired temp. What did I learn?

Disregard the lid temp gague, and follow the Maverick, which was below the top grate. My ribs took a bit longer though, around 8hrs.....but I don't mind it one bit, cause every cooking session for me is an adventure.

One thing I did noticed...The ribs were extremely juicy, I never had the ribs this juicy with my offset smoker before. So for me my 18.5 WSM is a far superior product.

About the Minion method. I used sand, instead of water, I'm just too clumsy around water, and probably would spill the water into the firebox.

But I used the Minion method 2 different way....first, I lid up a full chimney, and once they were white, I poured them into the firebox, and then added the unlit coals on top....the temps went up alright, but much slower then the other way around....(putting the hot coals on top)....again, my desired temps were between 220-225 degrees, and I started closing the bottom vents when I reached 200-205 degrees. Still, it took another 12-15 minutes to reach 220 degrees. Again, I used sand instead of water, so maybe that is the difference...
 
Hi Matt:

I had the same experience cooking ribs with my new Maverick. I had 3 slabs, rolled, up top and the same down below. I had the Maverick probe clipped onto the top grate. It was reading 50-75 above the lid thermometer. I decided to go with the Maverick readings, which meant very low lid readings.

I let them go for about 8 hours. When I took them off, I was shocked to learn they were underdone. My prior ribs, cooked at 225 per the lid thermometer, came out much better.

As Tibor alludes to, I think probe placement is the issue. I also like Tobor's idea of doing a test, prior to any meat being introduced, to see how close they are reading. If you think about it, with an empty (other than coals) smoker, there should be very little to no difference between the lid temp and the probe temp. When you get them to agree, add the meat and see what happens.

Good luck.

NickB
 
Thanks for the response guys. Some good ideas.

My biggest issue at this point is that I had a really hard time getting the temp where I wanted it. Like I said, even with all bottom vents shut, I was still well about 300 degrees for most of the cook time. I popped the lid to foil, and when I put it back on, all the extra airflow cause the temp to spike at 375. Not sure what the difference is....super frustrating.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickB:
Hi Matt:

I had the same experience cooking ribs with my new Maverick. I had 3 slabs, rolled, up top and the same down below. I had the Maverick probe clipped onto the top grate. It was reading 50-75 above the lid thermometer. I decided to go with the Maverick readings, which meant very low lid readings.

I let them go for about 8 hours. When I took them off, I was shocked to learn they were underdone. My prior ribs, cooked at 225 per the lid thermometer, came out much better.

As Tibor alludes to, I think probe placement is the issue. I also like Tobor's idea of doing a test, prior to any meat being introduced, to see how close they are reading. If you think about it, with an empty (other than coals) smoker, there should be very little to no difference between the lid temp and the probe temp. When you get them to agree, add the meat and see what happens.

Good luck.

NickB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Nick.....I'm surprised that your ribs did not come out like you wanted. Mine did came out great....and the only thing I could think of is the cooking proccess...did you used the 3-2-1 method? I do, and after I take the ribs out of the foil, I baste them in the 'Stubbs mopping sauce" I love that stuff, and once I put my ribs back, I raise the temps about 5-10 degrees. I keep them inside for 1.5 hrs, after which I look at them. The ribs are starting to get done, and I add the glaze to the ribs, after which I put them back for an additional hour, or even 1.5 hrs again. This time I raise the temps even higher, to about 140-145 degrees.I usually cook a spare & a baby back rib, and the baby back is done a bit earlier than the spare.....like about 30 minutes earlier...so yes, it takes about 8 hrs, but they are extremely juicy.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Matt J. (Mattski):
Thanks for the response guys. Some good ideas.

My biggest issue at this point is that I had a really hard time getting the temp where I wanted it. Like I said, even with all bottom vents shut, I was still well about 300 degrees for most of the cook time. I popped the lid to foil, and when I put it back on, all the extra airflow cause the temp to spike at 375. Not sure what the difference is....super frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Matt....there is always the possibility that you have a faulty lid gauge. I did happen before, and that's why I recomend running up the temps when there is nothing on the grates yet. That way you know if is still a big difference between the 2 gauges, then its the lid gauge which is bad.

The other thing is once the temps reach around 200-205 degrees, you start closing the 3 bottom vents. I close mine to about 10% open, if there is no wind....otherwise I close the vent which faces the wind all the way, and only leave the other 2 bottom wents open about 10%.

If your bottom vents still raise the temps, then close all 3 of them, and if that doesn't help, start closing the top vent as well....first 25%...then after about 10-15 minutes another 25%....eventually the temps have to stop climbing, and start decreasing if everything is closed.....unless of course there is still some air getting to the firebox in some other way....like the mid section is not perfectly rounded...that also was a problem on some WSM cookers before.

But my best bet it was the fact that you did not have the proper temp readings....once you reach the desired themp, and then maintain that temp, it should all work out fine, if you follow the Maverick, which is placed below the top grate.

I hope all this helps you for your next cooking adventure....good luck...
 
I was fascinated by temperature differences when my WSM was brand new too. Through good advice gleaned on this forum I learned to pick one and only one spot for temp readings. The lid, grate, and vent will all read different temps because they're in different places. Now, I just drop my Maverick through the vent and temp there. If the WSM is running cool, I check for doneness later. If it's running hot, I check for tender sooner.

Don't chase temps or fret over differences when getting different readings. In the grand scheme of things, temps don't really matter as long as they're consistent.
 
Yeah, I'm not all about chasing temps, but at the same time, I felt almost powerless to reduce the temperature to the 250 range. Which I think is why the ribs may have been just a touch dry.
 
The temp should not have needed to be reduced. If you Minion the start - and that means a couple or three handfuls of lit poured over a ring of unlit, not a full chimney of lit on top) - your temps will start quite low then climb. (Load the meat in when you dump the lit and assemble the cooker.) As Tibor notes, when the temps climb to 25-50? shy of your target you can start to close lower vents which will slow the rise; closed enough it will eventually stop rising and settle. I've never closed the lid vents at all.

Dryness had little to do with whatever temp you cooked. I routinely do ribs at 350-375 as I see no need to prolong cooking them. Many like the longer cooks. Your choice.

Dryness comes from undercooking or from overcooking irrespective of cooktemp. One of the biggest Q myths out there is that higher temps somehow cause dry meat. Uh-uh.

The 3-2-1 method was designed for lower cooktemps. You can use a similar method but if you're cooking hotter you need to alter the times. Regardless, cooking by time only is not the best method of producing great ribs. 3-2-1, 2.5-1.5-1, 4-.75-.25 - whatever - might work fine, but the only way to know if your ribs are tender is to check the ribs. If cooking by time you're winging it in terms of tenderness and since tenderness is so easy to check, do. When ribs are tender a probe inserted between the bones will go in effortlessly. You can use your cooker or meat probe or anything similar you'd like.

I don't always foil but when I do I foil when the ribs are richly colored, irrespective of the clock. I add a little reduced juice, stock, or a combo to the foil then they return to the cooker. I cook in the foil till tender, then I remove them and return them to the grate for a few minutes just to firm the bark (I dislike ribs - any meat - that is sauced while in the cooker; that's me, feel free to sauce if you prefer of course), then remove, rest a few minutes and serve.

Many cooktemps are possible. As Jerry notes, higher temps mean shorter cooks, lower means longer. Checking the ribs for tender and removing them when they reach it always means done.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and that means a couple or three handfuls of lit poured over a ring of unlit </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And by that, Kevin doesn't mean grabbing a handful of lit charcoal.
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Matt -- I apologize if anyone beat me to asking this, but how full was your chimney of lit? I just did a high heat brisket for about 4 hours at 350 (lid) using only a 1/2 chimney of lit (and the charcoal ring full of unlit) with the vents open. For lower temperatures and no water in the pan, you could probably get away with 1/4 chimney of lit.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
The temp should not have needed to be reduced. If you Minion the start - and that means a couple or three handfuls of lit poured over a ring of unlit, not a full chimney of lit on top) - your temps will start quite low then climb. (Load the meat in when you dump the lit and assemble the cooker.) As Tibor notes, when the temps climb to 25-50? shy of your target you can start to close lower vents which will slow the rise; closed enough it will eventually stop rising and settle. I've never closed the lid vents at all.

Dryness had little to do with whatever temp you cooked. I routinely do ribs at 350-375 as I see no need to prolong cooking them. Many like the longer cooks. Your choice.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Dryness comes from undercooking or from overcooking irrespective of cooktemp. One of the biggest Q myths out there is that higher temps somehow cause dry meat. Uh-uh.</span>

The 3-2-1 method was designed for lower cooktemps. You can use a similar method but if you're cooking hotter you need to alter the times. Regardless, cooking by time only is not the best method of producing great ribs. 3-2-1, 2.5-1.5-1, 4-.75-.25 - whatever - might work fine, but the only way to know if your ribs are tender is to check the ribs. If cooking by time you're winging it in terms of tenderness and since tenderness is so easy to check, do. When ribs are tender a probe inserted between the bones will go in effortlessly. You can use your cooker or meat probe or anything similar you'd like.

I don't always foil but when I do I foil when the ribs are richly colored, irrespective of the clock. I add a little reduced juice, stock, or a combo to the foil then they return to the cooker. I cook in the foil till tender, then I remove them and return them to the grate for a few minutes just to firm the bark (I dislike ribs - any meat - that is sauced while in the cooker; that's me, feel free to sauce if you prefer of course), then remove, rest a few minutes and serve.

Many cooktemps are possible. As Jerry notes, higher temps mean shorter cooks, lower means longer. Checking the ribs for tender and removing them when they reach it always means done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin,
Thanks for the feedback. To your point highlighted in blue, I don't have any misconception that I higher heat cook will result in drier ribs. I just didn't realize how much hotter my smoker cooks at then the lid indicated (per the maverick), so the cook time at 350 for 4.5 hours may have been too much. I think I've seen you post times of like 90 mins, then like 30-45 mins in foil, then a few mins to bark. That's what I would have expected, but I guess I just was kind of "fire-hosed" by what I was seeing - much hotter temps, and a percieved inability to reduce temps.

I think I've seen that it's easier to control temps on the way up - once the bulk of the charcoal is lit, it's really tough to back it down.

I fail at charcoal lol.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon Des.:
Matt -- I apologize if anyone beat me to asking this, but how full was your chimney of lit? I just did a high heat brisket for about 4 hours at 350 (lid) using only a 1/2 chimney of lit (and the charcoal ring full of unlit) with the vents open. For lower temperatures and no water in the pan, you could probably get away with 1/4 chimney of lit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was about 2/3 of a chimney of lump charcoal. That's the other thing I'm wondering - I've heard that lump burns hotter and faster, is that true?

I think next time I'll definitely reduce the amount of lit.
 
Depends on the lump and oxygen availability.

I Minion all cooks, even high heat ones. I use briquettes for the lit regardless of what's in the ring. For high heat cooks I start with 22-25 briquettes; for low/slows about 12 - or less. Unless I'm cooking at a high elevation or in cold weather I do not use more.

Starting with a lot of lit defeats the mains purposes of a Minion start - a slow, controlled igniting of the unlit effecting a slow temp rise, and less fuel use.

If your temps are hotter than planned - or cooler - you need to adjust your timing. Fixating on some specific notion of cook time has left many a cook disappointed. If you focus on the meat and not the time you can get great results every cook.

If you really need to lower temps choke the draft. Then wait for the effect.
 
Maybe my WSM has leaks. All vents were closed, and this sucker just wouldn't drop. I'll have to use all this new-found knowledge to whip up another batch.

Kevin - At 350 avg, when you do you normally start checking for tender? And I think in another post you said you sometimes foil. Is that around 90 mins? Thanks!

Matt
 
Matt, my advice -- cook more so that both you and the WSM gain "seasoning" and experience.
icon_cool.gif


Whether you plan to foil or not, the ribs are going to take several hours minimum -- so give them some time, then check for tenderness. If the temps are high, check a little earlier (2 1/2 - 3 hours), if low then check later (4 - 5 hours). With a few cooks, you'll understand.

A new WSM always leaks. As cooking grease accumulates, it will self-seal. Just get the door adjusted (this may take several cooks) and if it looks like a LOT of smoke around the lid check for out-of-round (a very occasional condition). My WSM is a well-cooked year old and still oozes smoke around the lid -- no big deal.

Don't get crazy about measuring temps. I have a Maverick too for monitoring big meat temps, but mostly I depend on the lid thermometer. Sure it measures about 25 - 50* less than the Maverick grate temp -- SO? If you smoke at 225-250* lid temp (or higher if you prefer) you will get good low and slow -- I don't care what the Maverick temp shows.

As has been said over and over -- if you are using Minion (which I think you should be), keep the amount of lit charcoal down. You got high temps that you couldn't manage because you had so much lit charcoal which refused to be "tempered". Keep the lid vent wide open (always) and start with the lower vents only about 50% or less. Prepare to adjust down, but any given cook may be different.

And lastly -- Do Whatever Kevin Says!
icon_biggrin.gif


Rich
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Kevin - At 350 avg, when you do you normally start checking for tender? And I think in another post you said you sometimes foil. Is that around 90 mins? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sometimes. I don't really go by time. I go by color. When the ribs reach the color I like - rich, with some depth - I foil if I'm foiling. That may occur at the 90 min mark, or might be later, maybe closer to 2 hours. It depends on how quick the rise in temp was, rub ingredients, etc.

When I foil I put the slab on meat side down and add a splash of liquid, often reduced juices (I'm partial to pineapple and tamarind) then seal the foil. Into the smoke meat side down, (I stack them if doing several.) Then I cook to tender while in the foil. I usually just have a sense of how long that will be but one can just go for a while, say 30-40 min at those temps, and simply remove a slab to check, opening the foil and checking with a probe. If not yet ready the foil can be recrimped and the ribs returned to the cooker. If almost ready they can be checked again in 15 min or so; if more resistance was noted then maybe an additional 30 before rechecking. When done, the ribs come out of the foil, the juices saved for sauce, and the bark gets firmed in the cooker. At high temps this takes just a few minutes.

I don't sauce bur will occasionally glaze. This gets applied once or twice in a very thin veneer and sets quickly.

In the past I cooked ribs lower because the timing usually better suited me. I cooked them the same way, i.e., foiling when nicely colored, etc. This might be 3 or 3.5 hours at lower (but still somewhat high) temps, or 4-4.5 hours at still lower temps. Then, if foiling, I'd foil with the liquid addition, and cook till tender in the foil, as above. (The foil time at low temps is not often that much different, maybe a bit more, than at higher temps, if one has cooked them longer up front.)

Were the circumstances to arise, now, that a longer cook would suit me better I wouldn't hesitate to cook rubs as I did before. As long as the results are tender and juicy I have no attachment to a specific flow. If you let the meat tell you where it is and judge what to do by what you see and feel you can cook at many temps in any sort of cooker under a variety of conditions and get good results every time.
 
I wanted to follow-up and let you guys know that I did another cook with the minion method the other night with chicken breast. I tried what you said and put only about 12 lit briquettes over the unlit, and sure enough, the temp was really slow to rise, and as it got around 240, I started closing the vents slowly until it finally reached my target of 275. I was able to maintain this temp for not only the entire next hour while I had the meat on (with very small adjustments to the vents, but I came back before I hit the hay and after 4 hours it was still at 275. Amazing! You guys rock!
 
Nick,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm just too clumsy around water, and probably would spill the water into the firebox </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last night it occured to me to fill the water bowl BEFORE I put the cooking chamber on top of the charcoal. If you don't have to refill, that may take care of the issue, if you prefer water.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Matt Sanders:
Nick,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm just too clumsy around water, and probably would spill the water into the firebox </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last night it occured to me to fill the water bowl BEFORE I put the cooking chamber on top of the charcoal. If you don't have to refill, that may take care of the issue, if you prefer water. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My wife has for years had a plant watering can with a long (about 12 - 14"), narrow-opening (about 5/8") neck that I use for filling regardless of when I do it.

For adding water, I now always cover the water pan with foil with about a 2" depression. Then at the four "corners", I make small holes (poke with a fork and twist a little) for water vapor to escape easily (and still keep out falling grease). One of these holes I deliberately make bigger (about 3/4") to be able to add water with the watering can. This hole I put in the center section so it is in front of the door. Filling or refilling is easy -- I use hot tap water.

Rich
 
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