Need some advise on some chicken I smoked today.


 

Bob Hunter

TVWBB Pro
Today I butterflied 2 rosters, and smoked then high heat 350° on my WSM with clay pot. Anyway they reached temp 170° in the thigh in 1 1/2 hours. A little quicker than usual. I checked the temp twice with two different thermometers. The one on my Stoker and then a instant read hand thermo. The Breasts were at 162°. Anyway the one we chose to eat tonight, seemed a bit tougher than usual as I was trying to separate the thighs. As I cut into the breast I noticed that there was what looked like dark blood still in the Breast and also in the thigh area.

I decided for safety sake, we wouldn't eat this one. The second bird seemed alright.

Any ideas, as I have never any blood on this dark red in chicken I have smoked before. I vacuum sealed the meat and figure I will recook it as left overs. Was I being over cautious? I am always nervous with chicken.
 
I don't think you were being overly cautious. However, if you know the therm is accurate (digital thermocouple or thermistor therms should be used on poultry--not analog bimetal therms) then the meat was safe provided, of course, you checked in the right location(s) which I am guessing you did.

The admonition to cook 'till the juices run clear' that has been the 'norm' for ages (and that one still hears from those who should know better--like the celebrity chefs and 'chefs' on FoodTV) is wrong. Several factors can contribute to dark red, pink or bloody-looking chicken even though the chicken has been cooked to a safe internal temp (or higher). Chicken that looks like this is unappetizing to say the least, but, if one is confident of a safe internal temp, safe to eat. Still, its appearance is enough to make one shun it. The only thing to do if that's the case is to cut it up (so that the red is exposed) and blast it with some heat--from a grill or broiler, say.

Food safety researcher/consultant Pete Snyder did a piece on safe but red chicken many years ago. It's here. Note that in all cases the chicken in the pictures is safe--unappetizing but safe.

Upshot: Use a digital therm, as noted, and be confident of its accuracy. After that, it's all visual appeal.
 
A timely thread for me. I finally tried Bryan's roadside chicken yesterday with legs back attached. I thought I grilled the snot out of the pieces but a couple still had the dreaded 'red', though not to the extent in the photos in Kevins link.

One of my kids was so distraught he immediately spat out what he was eating to his plate then nearly lost his dinner on the way to the sink. It's a cooks nightmare. You spend all this time and effort to prepare a nice meal only to have an incident like that!!

Kevin thanks for posting that link ... I'd seen it before and was looking for it briefly yesterday to have an education session. We'll be doing that today.

For myself, I don't panic anymore when poultry I cook looks like that, but I will never like it or the obligatory discussion that ensues. I will continue to avoid serving poultry with that appearance and yesterday's incident was a reminder why.

I'm thinking when doing pieces, particularly jointed, bone-in pieces to check them for bloody spots before serving. Not just bring it in and serve it, but crack the joints open or cut into each piece. Blast it with some heat like Kevin said, like in a 500F oven for a bit. Then ring the dinner bell.

This issue and burnt skin is why I boiled bone in chicken parts for about 40 minutes before grilling for years. It solves the problem but takes a huge toll on the final product.

One tidbit I can add is to explain to the concerned to use 'squishy' as the guide. If the meat is squishy, clearly still raw, jiggly and not firm THEN it is a problem. That seems to work well with folks and settle them enough to finish eating most times.
 
One more thing:

When I do whole birds I don't pin or tie the legs tight to the body ... (see pics in this thread). It helps. If it is registering done by thermo but I see a pool of red inside I flip it over for about 30 minutes and repeat as necesarry.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Food safety researcher/consultant Pete Snyder did a piece on safe but red chicken many years ago. It's here. Note that in all cases the chicken in the pictures is safe--unappetizing but safe.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If one were to blot the "bloody" chicken with a paper towel, would the towel become red?
 
Chickens which pass through our modern processing facilities are not always bled out properly, cleaned properly, etc. When they reach the end of the production line they are dumped into a cooling vat (picture a huge chilled swimming pool. There the birds sit and absorb the liquid sometimes for seveal hours. Ever seen the fine print on a label warning of up to 18% added liquid? This liquid is contaminated with everything that the previous birds carried into it. This is pool contains what is commonly called fecal soup. The liquid is absorbed by the meat and is what your seeing trapped in pockets (not marrow as the article says). The article ends with the comment that the USDA will solve this problem
icon_rolleyes.gif
This added liquid is showing up in our food chain quite frequently, wet aging is one good example. If your wondering what you can do to avoid this unpleasant add-on try seeking out meat and poultry that does not have the added liquid disclaimer. It is still avaialable in some areas. Or buy from a local farmer who you know is processing it as it should be. You will find this product far superior to the mushy chickens that are normally available.

BTW historical & religous teachings advise to completly bleed out the animals, probably for good reason.
 
Though I agree with your overarching point, Rich, and fully support purchasing locally raised free-range chickens that are minimally processed (preferably with air-chilling rather than water-chilling), there are several point I disagree with.

True that some chickens in commercial facilities might not be bled out properly (though it doesn't happen very often). However, chickens that are improperly bled don't end up in retailers' meat cases because improperly bled chickens' skin turns a bright deep red--not exactly saleable. They end up in the feed bins.

Water-chilled poultry does end up in a chill vat--but this is after already being hot water scalded twice (during defeathering) and washed twice (once post defeathering and once post evisceration). The chill vat can hardly be called 'fecal soup', nor is it particularly bloody, but, though chlorinated, certainly seems a vector for possible bacterial tranmission from carcass to carcass. But bacteria are common in chickens period--even free-range chickens--and are why I stress temping chicken with an accurate thermometer (a digital thermocouple or thermistor, not an analog bimetal therm--which should never be used to temp chicken or other thin meats). I am unware of any commercial facility that allows their chickens to chill for 'several hours'. It's simply not cost effective. Kill-to-chill is about an hour total; 0-45 min tops in the chill vat.

'Added liquid' is not the same thing as 'retained water'. If a package says liquid, water, or solution was 'added' then it was added--usually by injection. Chickens that are not injected (aka 'enhanced'), like turkeys, that are processed in a facility that uses water- rather than air-chilling, are likely to retain water from the chlling process. Processors, by law, must minimize water retention and must state on their labels a percentage of water retention ("may contain up to X% retained water", "contains not more than X% retained water", et al.). Water retention of 8-12% is common (it depends on several facors) but higher numbers would threaten the facility's USDA approval unless the processor could show that the higher figure had been minimized. I don't find that likely.

There are many studies that confirm iron migration--especially if the meat has been frozen--and other factors, including the porous nature of young chicken's bones, that can cause pink, red or dark red colorizing that may be apparent even if the chicken is cooked to the point of pasteurization. I am unaware of any studies that show that colorization is due to water-chilling. If you know of any I'd love to see them.

'Wet-aging', as often implemented by beef processors, middlemen, retailers, or consumers, has nothing to do with water chilling or water addition. Wet-aging (meat cuts cryo'd and kept cold for a period of time) allows for natural enzyme-activated tenderizing. Since no evaporation occurs (as happens with dry-aging), the natural water in the meat is retained.

Lastly, Pete's statement, "This is an interesting problem for the USDA to solve." was in no way a 'comment that the USAD will solve this problem.' It was made tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek. Pete is no friend of the USDA.

I fully support your support of locally raised, non-mass produced, meats and advocate the same myself. (Don't get me started on how much I can't stand the commercial pork industry and their methods!) Perhaps the day will come when they are more widely available. Still, they are likely to be significantly more expensive, as they are now.
 
Heard from somewhere (possibly a post on this forum) that if you crack or break the joints (pieces still connected together), the heat gets in there better and can eliminate that bloody joint problem.

Any truth to this?
 
Kevin, I stand corrected in that 'Added liquid' is not the same thing as 'retained water', perhaps I was a might too hasty typing a response.

However I do respectfully differ with you in your opinion of the level of saftey in the US processing system.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Most Americans don’t realize that our poultry supply is contaminated with fecal matter. Delmer Jones, president of the U.S. Meat Inspection Union, describes the current USDA labels as misleading to the public. He suggests, “The label should declare that the product has been contaminated with fecal material.”396 Eric Schlosser in Fast Food Nation proposes a more straight-forward approach: “There is **** in the meat.”397

How did it get there? After chickens are shackled, stunned, have their necks cut, and bleed to death, they are scalded, defeathered, and have their heads and feet removed. The next step is evisceration. Birds are typically gutted by a machine that uses a metal hook to pull out their guts.398 The intestines are often ripped in the process, spilling the contaminated contents over the carcass. If even a single bird is infected, the machinery is then contaminated and can pass infection down the line. In one study, when one chicken was inoculated with a tracer bacteria, the next 42 birds subsequently processed were found to be cross-infected. Sporadic contamination occurred up to the 150th bird.399 The World Health Organization concludes that large, centralized, and mechanized slaughter plants may “create hazards for the human food chain.”400

Millions of chickens miss the killing blade and are drowned in the scalding tanks every year,401 in part because the USDA does not include poultry under the protections of the federal Humane Methods of Slaughter Act.402 The birds, still conscious, may defecate in the tanks and inhale water polluted by fecal leakage into their lungs,403 which can lead to further contamination of the carcass down the line.404 So-called “controlled atmosphere killing,” which uses inert gases to essentially put the birds to sleep, is a more hygienic method of slaughter.405

According to former USDA microbiologist Gerald Kuester, “there are about 50 points during processing where cross-contamination can occur. At the end of the line, the birds are no cleaner than if they had been dipped in a toilet.”406 The toilet, in this case, is the chill water bath at the end of the line in which the birds’ remains soak for an hour to increase profitability by adding water weight to the carcass. At this point, the bath water is more of a chilled fecal soup. This collective soak has been shown to increase contamination levels by almost a quarter. “That extra 24% of contamination the chill water adds,” writes Nicols Fox, “can be credited to pure greed.”407

As Fox points out in Spoiled, the microbiologist’s assertion that the “final product is no different than if you stuck it in the toilet and ate it” is not gross hyperbole. Gross, perhaps, but not hyperbole. In fact, the toilet might actually be safer than your sink. Researchers at the University of Arizona found more fecal bacteria in the kitchen—on sponges, dish towels, the sink drain, countertops—than they found swabbing the rim of the toilet.408 Comparing surfaces in bathrooms and kitchens in the same household, the investigators note that “consistently, kitchens come up dirtier.”409 The excess fecal contamination is presumed to come from raw animal products brought into the home. As Fox points out. “The bathroom is cleaner because people are not washing their chickens in the toilet.”410

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
References may be found at http://birdflubook.com/references.php
 
Point taken--and agreed. I have never claimed that the processing system was safe. In fact, I've written many times here and elsewhere about food safety. I would take issue with Jones's characterization of the USDA label requirements (note that I am no friend of the USDA) because there are huge political issues between the meat people and the poultry people. This--the topic of food safety--is rife with political machinations of and between various parties. This alone is a huge problem.

The assertion that chill water chilling is 'pure greed' is disingenuous at best, specious more likely. The Feds require--for food safety purposes 9and in this I am in agreement) that carcasses be rapidly chilled. Water weight gain, though certainly adding to the bottom line, is a by-product of this chilling. Air chilling is better, imo, and does not add weight (it results in a bit of loss, actually), but is more expensive. And--and I cannot stress this enough--Americans are addicted to low prices--the Wal-Mart-ization of America. Many if not most will not pay the added expense.

Yes, kitchens come up dirtier. I have been saying this for years. Can I get the food writers, recipe authors, editors to stop telling people to wash poultry when they take it out of the package? No. I keep trying though. People think I'm nuts--but all they do when they wash poultry is spread bacteria hither and yon. Well documented--but you do not hear this from the FDA.

Lastly on this point, yes, most chicken is swarming with bacteria (farm-raised, free-range too, btw; campylobacter live in the gut). But chicken can be made wuite safe to eat if cooked to a safe internal temp--none of this 'till the leg wiggles' or this 'till juices run clear' crapola. TEMP IT WITH THE RIGHT ACCURATE THERM!

There are numerous problems with food safety information notwithstanding the politics of the players involved--from the FDA not having a scientific basis for many of their requirements to processor problems (especially, again, the commercial pork industry) to the many myths one sees promulgated on the Net. Consumers are left both in the dark, possessed of myths or half-truths, and without, often, validated information to help them make wise choices.

I think--really--we're pretty much on the same page Rich.
 
I own and use Tel-Tru therm for all my cooking. And I don't trust digital therm because:

1. my Maverick ET73 receiver has hung (remained stationary) several times even though the transmitter displayed a much higher temp.

2. my Taylor digital thermometer has hung several times as well. This one, I ditched in favor of my Tel-Tru analog therm.
 
If it is a bimetal analog therm it should not be used to measure temps in thin items--like chicken breasts--if food safety is a concern, as it should be, imo. Bimetal therms show an average temp along the portion of the probe containing the two metals--usually 2 to 3 inches in length--too much length required for thin items. In other words, one does not get an accurate reading of the temp at the tip, critical in determining whether a safe internal has been achieved.
 
Cooked to a minimal safe internal temp chicken is safe to eat. But, and I'll stress again, temping chicken with an accurate thermometer (a digital thermocouple or thermistor, not an analog bimetal therm--which should never be used to temp chicken or other thin meats) should be any cook's MO.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
political machinations of and between various parties. This alone is a huge problem.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is one thing that really gets to me on this issue. When it comes to claims and research from the likes of the Humane society or PETA, I just don't trust them because I know they have ulterior motives. Same thing with groups like the Meat council, etc.

FWIW, I'd always wondered how the processors eviscerated chickens without piercing the guts and spreading the bacteria they contain. I've cleaned my fair share of chickens, geese, and other fowl and have always found slitting open the belly to remove the guts takes some (relatively speaking) careful work. Definately not above the abilities of a child, but I always thought there's no way the big processors can process the amount of birds they do without accidentally cutting into the intestines...no way.
 
Not to get into the subject of slaughter houses .
The blood part is easy to fix. If you have a good microwave put it in there for about 60 seconds. If your chickens at temp the micro will stop the blood running out problem.
Works for me anyways.

Seeyaaa
Jeff
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Phil R.:
That is one thing that really gets to me on this issue. When it comes to claims and research from the likes of the Humane society or PETA, I just don't trust them because I know they have ulterior motives. Same thing with groups like the Meat council, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's why i don't trust the quote from the meat inspector union head from above. everyone has ulterior motives. whoopity-doo, more fecal material in the kitchen. what did he do to determine where the fecal matter came from? fecal matter is on money, so noone use cash anymore. or shopping carts/baskets.

can things be better. sure! but everything can be better. there is nothing wrong with wal-mart or cheap. for safety, our government should intervene, that's their job.

thanks for all the opinions above, gives people something to think about. also, look at the supposed source. people quote what works for them, not against. just like stats and ***** quotes.
 

 

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