Pizza Dough & Pizza Sauce
- Thread starter Rita Y
- Start date
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
Has anyone used this recipe and kept the dough more than 36hrs or frozen it?
Bob, Have frozen dough with mixed results. It's ok but not as good as the fresh stuff or dough you've had sitting in the fridge for a couple of days or more. Before freezing,I make sure the dough has been kneaded,risen at least once and punched down. It's ok in a pinch or if your too tired to mess around with making dough.
Marc, that's very interesting. Are you referring to this particular dough or another one for its keeping qualities and reduction of the amount of yeast?
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Bob, this is a very flexible and forgiving dough, and works around your schedule rather than the other way 'round. I have refrigerated the (thawed) dough balls for 2 or 3 days and had no problem.
Usually, I scale up the dough recipe to use one 5-pound bag of flour. After mixing and kneading, I divide it into 9 portions for 12-inch pizzas, shape them into very tight balls, roll them in flour (I don't oil the dough or the pan), and wrap in plastic wrap. You can let them stand for 15 minutes before freezing or not. I freeze them until solid and then pop them into a freezer bag.
To use them, I like to retard the dough before baking, so I pull them out of the freezer one or two days before I plan to make pizza, roll them again (still frozen) in flour, and place in a lightly floured Pyrex baking dish (again, no oil needed). I slip the pan into a large plastic bag and put it into the refrigerator. The dough balls for 12-inch pizzas can be left out at room temperature for an hour or so before refrigerating to get the thawing started.
I leave them refrigerated until the next day (or two). Around 1 p.m. of baking day I remove the pan from the refrigerator and let it stand at room temperature for 5 to 6 hours (it is pretty forgiving). Then I stretch the dough (it should be pretty soft and very extensible), top it, and bake.
This dough does not need to be kneaded or risen before freezing. If you do that, in my opinion, you lose the rustic character of the crust and might have smaller air pockets in the edges.
I haven't tried refrigerating the dough balls for longer than 3 or 4 days, so can't speak for longer times. One day I'll do it if I don't get too much static from the family..."Where's the pizza?"
If you feel comfortable with handling very soft doughs, you can add a little water to the recipe (I do). The softer, the better.
Rita
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Bob, this is a very flexible and forgiving dough, and works around your schedule rather than the other way 'round. I have refrigerated the (thawed) dough balls for 2 or 3 days and had no problem.
Usually, I scale up the dough recipe to use one 5-pound bag of flour. After mixing and kneading, I divide it into 9 portions for 12-inch pizzas, shape them into very tight balls, roll them in flour (I don't oil the dough or the pan), and wrap in plastic wrap. You can let them stand for 15 minutes before freezing or not. I freeze them until solid and then pop them into a freezer bag.
To use them, I like to retard the dough before baking, so I pull them out of the freezer one or two days before I plan to make pizza, roll them again (still frozen) in flour, and place in a lightly floured Pyrex baking dish (again, no oil needed). I slip the pan into a large plastic bag and put it into the refrigerator. The dough balls for 12-inch pizzas can be left out at room temperature for an hour or so before refrigerating to get the thawing started.
I leave them refrigerated until the next day (or two). Around 1 p.m. of baking day I remove the pan from the refrigerator and let it stand at room temperature for 5 to 6 hours (it is pretty forgiving). Then I stretch the dough (it should be pretty soft and very extensible), top it, and bake.
This dough does not need to be kneaded or risen before freezing. If you do that, in my opinion, you lose the rustic character of the crust and might have smaller air pockets in the edges.
I haven't tried refrigerating the dough balls for longer than 3 or 4 days, so can't speak for longer times. One day I'll do it if I don't get too much static from the family..."Where's the pizza?"
If you feel comfortable with handling very soft doughs, you can add a little water to the recipe (I do). The softer, the better.
Rita
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
Thanks Rita, I sent you a email last week to the address on your profile but it probably ended up in your junk file.
I'm taking dough to the cottage and doing pizzas for about 8 people on the 3rd or 4th night. Fridge space is limited so wanted to freeze it. Guess I'll be good to go.
I've also had trouble with it being very sticky and elastic to work with. Should I just add more flour to the the balls when forming or should I add more flour when mixing. I use a scale when doing my ingredients and make it in a mixer.
Thanks for your help.
Bob, I've been having trouble getting a few, but not all, emails this past couple of weeks. Sorry yours didn't get through. We're trying to see what the problem is. Let's see if I can help with the pizzas. I'm glad you are weighing the ingredients. What brand of flour are you using? Canadian bread flours might have a slightly different protein level than ours, but I have no information on that.
First, Gold Medal has changed the name, not the formula, of their bread flour from Harvest King to just bread flour. I've changed that in the ingredient list of the recipe.
You say the dough is very sticky. Is this when making the dough or when trying to shape the pizzas? The dough is normally a little sticky when making it, but try not to add any more flour than you need to. It does take a little practice to work with sticky doughs. Keep your hands and work surface floured.
If it is really sticky when trying to stretch it, it might have been overproofed. The ball of dough should spring back gradually when you poke a finger about 1/4 inch into it. If the indentation remains after a couple of minutes you are probably overproofing it. Note that I have edited the recipe with a suggestion of 5 hours to proof it instead of 7. Sorry that I didn't catch that sooner.
You mention the dough is very elastic. Just to be sure we are on the same page, when is it elastic? When mixing or when stretching? By elastic, do you mean that it springs back when you try to stretch it, or that it stretches out by its own weight?
Rita
First, Gold Medal has changed the name, not the formula, of their bread flour from Harvest King to just bread flour. I've changed that in the ingredient list of the recipe.
You say the dough is very sticky. Is this when making the dough or when trying to shape the pizzas? The dough is normally a little sticky when making it, but try not to add any more flour than you need to. It does take a little practice to work with sticky doughs. Keep your hands and work surface floured.
If it is really sticky when trying to stretch it, it might have been overproofed. The ball of dough should spring back gradually when you poke a finger about 1/4 inch into it. If the indentation remains after a couple of minutes you are probably overproofing it. Note that I have edited the recipe with a suggestion of 5 hours to proof it instead of 7. Sorry that I didn't catch that sooner.
You mention the dough is very elastic. Just to be sure we are on the same page, when is it elastic? When mixing or when stretching? By elastic, do you mean that it springs back when you try to stretch it, or that it stretches out by its own weight?
Rita
Rita, I've frozen dough without kneading and letting it rise and it seems real "non elastic" when defrosted.So, I went to letting it rise. Of course, now that I think about it,it could have been the flour I used or the water. I now use distilled water with great results.
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
Rita I sent this to your email but thought other noobs to dough could benefit from my incompetence and lack of knowledge.
Hi Rita,
Thanks for your help. I use Robin Hood bread flour which is pretty much the standard for flour where I live. The dough gathers on the hook when I mix it but still sticks a bit to the bottom of the bowl. When I stop the final mixing and remove the dough from the bowl it sticks to the bowl.
I have been proofing it for 5-6 hrs. When stretching the dough it is difficult to stretch and springs back, which can get a little annoying. The end result is fantastic, a nice chewy crust with puffy edges. I'm just thinking it should be easier to handle. I have also cut the salt in half but I don't think that should make a difference.
I have no experience with baking but since trying this dough recipe I have tried my hand at different style buns with some failure and some success. I just need to learn the characteristics and uses of different flours and yeasts. Heck before this I didn't even know there was bread flour and all purpose flour.
Cheers
Bob
Hi Rita,
Thanks for your help. I use Robin Hood bread flour which is pretty much the standard for flour where I live. The dough gathers on the hook when I mix it but still sticks a bit to the bottom of the bowl. When I stop the final mixing and remove the dough from the bowl it sticks to the bowl.
I have been proofing it for 5-6 hrs. When stretching the dough it is difficult to stretch and springs back, which can get a little annoying. The end result is fantastic, a nice chewy crust with puffy edges. I'm just thinking it should be easier to handle. I have also cut the salt in half but I don't think that should make a difference.
I have no experience with baking but since trying this dough recipe I have tried my hand at different style buns with some failure and some success. I just need to learn the characteristics and uses of different flours and yeasts. Heck before this I didn't even know there was bread flour and all purpose flour.
Cheers
Bob
Bob, Robin Hood bread flour is an excellent flour; I believe it is a bit stronger (higher protein) than the Gold Medal I use, but should work fine, as will King Arthur bread flour.
When using the mixer, you really should use the dough hook instead of the paddle. Mix just enough to moisten all the flour (scrape the sides of the bowl occasionally to make sure that the flour in the bottom of the bowl is incorporated), cover, and let rest for 15 minutes. This step is pretty important so that the flour is well and evenly hydrated before the final mixing. You give a good explanation of what your dough is like and should indeed be like: during kneading, it will stick a little to the bottom of the bowl and be somewhat sticky to work with. Yes, it will stick to your hands and does take a little practice, but you'll be comfortable with it before long. I find that keeping your hands floured well helps the handling of the dough. Also, when working with it, use quick, light, strokes rather than strong, purposeful ones and it will stick less to your hands.
TIP: Before rinsing off your hands, briskly rub them together to make most of the stuck-on dough "pill" up and work itself off your hands. You might have already discovered that trick.
The dough springing back when stretched is usually a sign that it is underproofed. Do the finger poke test that I previously described at the 5- and 6-hour mark. If the indentation fills in slowly, wait another 30 minutes and repeat if necessary. I believe that Robin Hood is a stronger flour and might require a little more time. Try a 7-hour proof.
Yes, it is annoying when the dough springs back when stretching. This dough should not do that. If it does happen, stretch it as far as you can, then cover it lightly with a non-terrycloth towel, and let it rest for 10 minutes (while working on a second dough ball, perhaps). Then gently stretch it again. I usually hold a small circle of dough up by one side and work it around in my hands in a circle, keeping the edges a little thicker. Its weight alone might stretch the dough.
Do not change the amount of salt in the recipe. The salt in this recipe should always be 2.0% of the weight of the flour. Salt brings the dough together and does make a big difference in the dough. Reducing the salt might be contributing to its stickiness for you. You can change the amount of yeast to adjust rising times, but it would be best not to change the salt percentage.
You are doing great if you are as inexperienced as you claim! Your description of the dough and your problems is definitely not from an inexperienced person. You are "in tune" with your dough - very encouraging. Experience will teach you the "feel" of doughs. Keep on weighing the ingredients and take good notes. When I taught myself to bake with yeast, I used to make the same recipe back to back at least twice in the same day, making only one change. It was a good way to compare the feel of the two different doughs and see how the change affected the final outcome. It takes time and practice, like anything worthwhile. Consider it an adventure.
Rita
When using the mixer, you really should use the dough hook instead of the paddle. Mix just enough to moisten all the flour (scrape the sides of the bowl occasionally to make sure that the flour in the bottom of the bowl is incorporated), cover, and let rest for 15 minutes. This step is pretty important so that the flour is well and evenly hydrated before the final mixing. You give a good explanation of what your dough is like and should indeed be like: during kneading, it will stick a little to the bottom of the bowl and be somewhat sticky to work with. Yes, it will stick to your hands and does take a little practice, but you'll be comfortable with it before long. I find that keeping your hands floured well helps the handling of the dough. Also, when working with it, use quick, light, strokes rather than strong, purposeful ones and it will stick less to your hands.
TIP: Before rinsing off your hands, briskly rub them together to make most of the stuck-on dough "pill" up and work itself off your hands. You might have already discovered that trick.
The dough springing back when stretched is usually a sign that it is underproofed. Do the finger poke test that I previously described at the 5- and 6-hour mark. If the indentation fills in slowly, wait another 30 minutes and repeat if necessary. I believe that Robin Hood is a stronger flour and might require a little more time. Try a 7-hour proof.
Yes, it is annoying when the dough springs back when stretching. This dough should not do that. If it does happen, stretch it as far as you can, then cover it lightly with a non-terrycloth towel, and let it rest for 10 minutes (while working on a second dough ball, perhaps). Then gently stretch it again. I usually hold a small circle of dough up by one side and work it around in my hands in a circle, keeping the edges a little thicker. Its weight alone might stretch the dough.
Do not change the amount of salt in the recipe. The salt in this recipe should always be 2.0% of the weight of the flour. Salt brings the dough together and does make a big difference in the dough. Reducing the salt might be contributing to its stickiness for you. You can change the amount of yeast to adjust rising times, but it would be best not to change the salt percentage.
You are doing great if you are as inexperienced as you claim! Your description of the dough and your problems is definitely not from an inexperienced person. You are "in tune" with your dough - very encouraging. Experience will teach you the "feel" of doughs. Keep on weighing the ingredients and take good notes. When I taught myself to bake with yeast, I used to make the same recipe back to back at least twice in the same day, making only one change. It was a good way to compare the feel of the two different doughs and see how the change affected the final outcome. It takes time and practice, like anything worthwhile. Consider it an adventure.
Rita
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
Thanks for the help Rita. I'll let you know how it works out.
Rita,
Often, I'll make up three dough ball in which I stager the amount of yeast from 1/8 t to 1/2 t. The 1/2 t would be for the next day, 1/4 t in a few days, 1/8 t, four plus days.
It's easy (although a bit time consuming) to individualize as I usually mix in the FP pretty much using your method. To help avoid over heating the dough I use ice water. Out of the processor each dough ball gets a bit of hand kneading, a mist of oil, into a 2qt cambro, into the fridge.
First was doing this with Bryan S (long ferment dough) but I think it works better with the higher hydration of this recipe.
BTW/ Can't thank you enough for posting that sauce recipe! Use it all the time. Since it is no cook I usually add a tiny bit of fish sauce to replace the anchovy in my cooked version.
Often, I'll make up three dough ball in which I stager the amount of yeast from 1/8 t to 1/2 t. The 1/2 t would be for the next day, 1/4 t in a few days, 1/8 t, four plus days.
It's easy (although a bit time consuming) to individualize as I usually mix in the FP pretty much using your method. To help avoid over heating the dough I use ice water. Out of the processor each dough ball gets a bit of hand kneading, a mist of oil, into a 2qt cambro, into the fridge.
First was doing this with Bryan S (long ferment dough) but I think it works better with the higher hydration of this recipe.
BTW/ Can't thank you enough for posting that sauce recipe! Use it all the time. Since it is no cook I usually add a tiny bit of fish sauce to replace the anchovy in my cooked version.
StanHenson
TVWBB Member
This is a good thread! I just wanted to share a few more dough tips. I have a wood fired oven and make pizza dough weekly, so I've been through a lot of trial and error.
1. Wet hands make good dough. When you're stretching or handling the dough prior to shaping, try water on your hands instead of four. Pizza dough flourishes when wet. The wetter it is, the easier it stretches.
2. Try all purpose flour. King Arthur AP makes a fantastic pizza at 65-70% hydration. Conventional wisdom says high protein flour is needed for great pizza. That just isn't so. If you're having stretching trouble, try AP.
3. Be gentle with the dough disk's lip if you want a puffy crust. Look up shaping technique videos by Pasquale Makishima; you don't need to toss for great pizza.
4. Overnight is right. Keep it cold to draw out the flavor in the flour.
1. Wet hands make good dough. When you're stretching or handling the dough prior to shaping, try water on your hands instead of four. Pizza dough flourishes when wet. The wetter it is, the easier it stretches.
2. Try all purpose flour. King Arthur AP makes a fantastic pizza at 65-70% hydration. Conventional wisdom says high protein flour is needed for great pizza. That just isn't so. If you're having stretching trouble, try AP.
3. Be gentle with the dough disk's lip if you want a puffy crust. Look up shaping technique videos by Pasquale Makishima; you don't need to toss for great pizza.
4. Overnight is right. Keep it cold to draw out the flavor in the flour.
StanHenson
TVWBB Member
Paul,
I'm not saying KAAP is the bee's knees. It's just a very good, unbleached AP that I've found to be remarkably consistent from bag to bag. In pizza, like in barbecue, consistency and reproducibility is SOO until you get a feel for the variables.
If you want to spend some dollars and eat some GOOD experiments, I can't speak highly enough of Caputo 00 flour. An overnight pizza dough with Caputo, cooked on a hot enough fire to brown it, is a thing of pure beauty.
I'm not saying KAAP is the bee's knees. It's just a very good, unbleached AP that I've found to be remarkably consistent from bag to bag. In pizza, like in barbecue, consistency and reproducibility is SOO until you get a feel for the variables.
If you want to spend some dollars and eat some GOOD experiments, I can't speak highly enough of Caputo 00 flour. An overnight pizza dough with Caputo, cooked on a hot enough fire to brown it, is a thing of pure beauty.
StanHenson
TVWBB Member
Hey Paul,
I see that you're from Evansville. I lived in Owensboro for 20 years. Vecchios Market in Newburgh almost surely has Caputo. You might want to see. Its not just the protein in that flour. Its the grind and the GREAT extensibility.
Stan
I see that you're from Evansville. I lived in Owensboro for 20 years. Vecchios Market in Newburgh almost surely has Caputo. You might want to see. Its not just the protein in that flour. Its the grind and the GREAT extensibility.
Stan
Gotta say I'm with Paul AFA KAAP flour. It's something I can get routinely and has performed over time extremely well for Pizza cooks. I've used the KABF as well but the AP is always on hand and works very well.
Once I have run out of my current pizza dough from my last batch going to try Rita's dough recipe and use KABF just to see... up to now I've been using Bryan Stepens (sp?) old post with great success.
Rita - your "uncooked" sauce is very close to mine. I'm of the same mindset that the sauce should not be cooked until it goes in the oven with the pie
Bob Sample
TVWBB Diamond Member
Ok back from the cottage and everything worked great.
I followed the exact recipe and froze the dough immediately after forming the balls. Thawed the dough overnight in the fridge then removed in the morning and let it sit for 7 1/2 hours.
While I was getting the Q ready the dough was stretched and my wife said it was much easier to work with than previous dough so I think my main problem was under proofing the dough.
Made 8 12" pizzas over the next 1 1/2hrs and everyone loved them. The dough didn't puff as much as normal when cooked but I think that was because I didn't have the kettle as hot as normal.
Thanks for the help Rita.
I followed the exact recipe and froze the dough immediately after forming the balls. Thawed the dough overnight in the fridge then removed in the morning and let it sit for 7 1/2 hours.
While I was getting the Q ready the dough was stretched and my wife said it was much easier to work with than previous dough so I think my main problem was under proofing the dough.
Made 8 12" pizzas over the next 1 1/2hrs and everyone loved them. The dough didn't puff as much as normal when cooked but I think that was because I didn't have the kettle as hot as normal.
Thanks for the help Rita.