What to do when you screw up and your pizza sticks


 

Ed P

TVWBB Diamond Member
I cut the parchment to size after the pie is made. I just drag the scissors along the edge of the dough and it ends up slightly smaller
In my case, the pizza oven is hotter than what you E6ers bake at, and any parchment that is exposed to the air is charred or incinerated. I have all that heat from the rear burner flowing over the top of the pizza. You can buy the circles precut, too, which was my original intent, but you really only need enough coverage to keep the pie from sticking. I like having "everything in its place" on pizza day, so precut works well for me, but it's your pizza, make it your way!
 

Joe Anshien

TVWBB Emerald Member
Pies came out best ever, launched on parchment with stone temp in the mid-600s. I pulled the paper at 3 minutes, total bake time on the first pie 5 minutes (too long), pulled the second pie at 4.5 minutes, perfect! The paper wasn't too bad...I'm going to leave it under the pie for the duration next time.

Good oven-spring at 65%, going to up it to 66% next time. This is the first pie, a little too brown from me futzing with trying to get the paper out.
That veggie peperoni looks perfect from here. I may go back to parchment as I do on the gas oven and singed paper does not bother me if the pizza comes out great.
 

Ed P

TVWBB Diamond Member
If there is too much exposed paper in a pizza oven, it gets incinerated and the ash floats around inside (the pizza is constantly turning) and I worry about the ash landing on the pizza. It's not going to be a problem for folks that don't have the paper directly exposed to the heat output from a burner, but at some point I hope to do away with the paper altogether, although I find myself thinking that I may not want to...the lack of grittiness from not using semolina is noticeable.
 

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Clay Neubauer

TVWBB Super Fan
Wooden peel, dough meant for it, and a light touch on the toppings instead of a five pound school lunch lady pizza are the keys. It takes a lot of hours of work before they start to look kind of pretty, and I'll be honest occasionally one still gets turned into a calzone here because it sticks and the best option is to roll it up.....

My sister has a friend who worked in a locally owned Greek pizza place. She is a magician with pizza dough. She accelerated my learning curve greatly. If you can find somebody at a nearby mom n pop pizzeria who would be willing to come out to your place for a couple hours in exchange for a few beers and a bit of food, you might learn a lot really quick.
 

Ed P

TVWBB Diamond Member
noticeable in a good way? or noticeable missing it?
It's probably just me. I don't know that anyone else would notice. See what you think.

EDIT: I am really conflicted on this. A certain amount of grittiness is expected, I think, and when it's not there...all I know is that, as I was eating, the memory of eating a pizza at a favorite pizzeria where the grittiness was apparent popped into my mind and I had never thought of that before, even at the time that I was eating it. I should have kept that thought to myself. YMMV
 
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Joe Anshien

TVWBB Emerald Member
We had company over the weekend and I made 2 pizzas on the new steel. I also used a 16" pizza thing I found in a thrift store. It is a pizza pan with holes (not what I would classify as a screen). I stretched the dough on the pan, prepared the pizza and put the pan on the steel. After a few minutes I was able to slide the pizza off the pan onto the steel, then cooked normally. I had the two burners under the steel on high and the two side burners on medium. The steel read about 500°. It takes a long time to heat up this hunk of metal, glad I did not go thicker. I still find it hard to stretch dough and need to watch more vids. Also I put in a tablespoon of gluten in the dough for testing. Could not really tell one way or the other if there was a difference. New pizza steel will probably last forever, could probably double as a griddle, but it is heavier than a stone and kind of a pain to move between grill and storage in our oven. Has anyone tried cooking pizza on the flat side of Grillgrates? I may have to give that a shot some time. So just to recap the pizza pan/screen was used pretty much as the same manner / crutch as parchment paper would have.

New Screen Thing / First pizza on screen
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First pizza moved to steel and about ready to take off
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Crust of first pizza
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Stiffness of first slice
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Bottom of first slice
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Second pizza
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Brett-EDH

TVWBB Diamond Member
We had company over the weekend and I made 2 pizzas on the new steel. I also used a 16" pizza thing I found in a thrift store. It is a pizza pan with holes (not what I would classify as a screen). I stretched the dough on the pan, prepared the pizza and put the pan on the steel. After a few minutes I was able to slide the pizza off the pan onto the steel, then cooked normally. I had the two burners under the steel on high and the two side burners on medium. The steel read about 500°. It takes a long time to heat up this hunk of metal, glad I did not go thicker. I still find it hard to stretch dough and need to watch more vids. Also I put in a tablespoon of gluten in the dough for testing. Could not really tell one way or the other if there was a difference. New pizza steel will probably last forever, could probably double as a griddle, but it is heavier than a stone and kind of a pain to move between grill and storage in our oven. Has anyone tried cooking pizza on the flat side of Grillgrates? I may have to give that a shot some time. So just to recap the pizza pan/screen was used pretty much as the same manner / crutch as parchment paper would have.

New Screen Thing / First pizza on screen
View attachment 59279 View attachment 59280

First pizza moved to steel and about ready to take off
View attachment 59281

Crust of first pizza
View attachment 59282

Stiffness of first slice
View attachment 59283
Bottom of first slice
View attachment 59284

Second pizza
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Dough becomes more supple and pliable the longer it rests after being mixed. How old is your dough before you make pie shells? I usually go 2-5 days, depending on how well I planned.
 

Joe Anshien

TVWBB Emerald Member
Dough becomes more supple and pliable the longer it rests after being mixed. How old is your dough before you make pie shells? I usually go 2-5 days, depending on how well I planned.
I made the dough on Friday and we made the pizzas on Sunday. I did 2 punch downs on it. Took it out at 9am Sunday and made the pizza about 12. I am pretty sure that my technique is not great but it never seems as stretchy as you see in videos.
 

Brett-EDH

TVWBB Diamond Member
I made the dough on Friday and we made the pizzas on Sunday. I did 2 punch downs on it. Took it out at 9am Sunday and made the pizza about 12. I am pretty sure that my technique is not great but it never seems as stretchy as you see in videos.
If you’d like some input, post your dough recipes and actual ingredients used. If it helps I can offer some feedback. I can get my dough paper thin and almost see through. Your pizza looks good though.
 

Joe Anshien

TVWBB Emerald Member
If you’d like some input, post your dough recipes and actual ingredients used. If it helps I can offer some feedback. I can get my dough paper thin and almost see through. Your pizza looks good though.
Thanks - I have been doubling this one, from here. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.0

High-gluten flour, 11.80 oz. (about 2 1/2 c.)
Water, 7.70 oz. (about 1 c.) (about 65% hydration)
IDY, 0.20 oz. (1 1/2 t.) [Edit: See Note below]
Salt, 0.20 oz. (3/4 t.)
Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
 

Brett-EDH

TVWBB Diamond Member
Thanks - I have been doubling this one, from here. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.0

High-gluten flour, 11.80 oz. (about 2 1/2 c.)
Water, 7.70 oz. (about 1 c.) (about 65% hydration)
IDY, 0.20 oz. (1 1/2 t.) [Edit: See Note below]
Salt, 0.20 oz. (3/4 t.)
Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Which flour brand and version is your HGF? I’ve read a ton of that site over the years. I’m also assuming you are trying for NY style dough and not Neapolitan. The two are somewhat different.

Are you cold fermenting? Or countertop fermenting?

I’m not a pizza master but I’ve been making home pies for 25+ years now.
 

Ed P

TVWBB Diamond Member
Joe, I think that pan you have, because of the "feet" that are stamped in it to hold it above the surface, is intended to serve the pizza, so the bottom doesn't get soggy from condensation. We have a similar pan that doesn't have the feet and it is used in a conveyor oven.

I think it's funny that you say you added gluten and didn't notice the difference! Lack of extensibility (stretching) is one of the effects of high gluten, and I can really tell the difference with using a high gluten flour like All-Trumps flour (14.2% protein)...there is a ton of snap back, like trying to stretch a rubber band, even after resting for days in the fridge. The other thing that can cause snap back is over-kneading (over developing the gluten mechanically), but unless you are kneading with a mixer, I think your problem is from too much gluten. I think I posted a link to a VWG calculator earlier, but typically VWG is added at about a rate of 0.5% - 1%, and less is better when using a high gluten flour.

The pies look good, though!
 

Joe Anshien

TVWBB Emerald Member
Which flour brand and version is your HGF? I’ve read a ton of that site over the years. I’m also assuming you are trying for NY style dough and not Neapolitan. The two are somewhat different.

Are you cold fermenting? Or countertop fermenting?

I’m not a pizza master but I’ve been making home pies for 25+ years now.
Brett, King Arthur 12.7% organic bread flour. Cold fermenting I guess since it was in the fridge. NY style.
Thanks
Joe
Joe, I think that pan you have, because of the "feet" that are stamped in it to hold it above the surface, is intended to serve the pizza, so the bottom doesn't get soggy from condensation. We have a similar pan that doesn't have the feet and it is used in a conveyor oven.

I think it's funny that you say you added gluten and didn't notice the difference! Lack of extensibility (stretching) is one of the effects of high gluten, and I can really tell the difference with using a high gluten flour like All-Trumps flour (14.2% protein)...there is a ton of snap back, like trying to stretch a rubber band, even after resting for days in the fridge. The other thing that can cause snap back is over-kneading (over developing the gluten mechanically), but unless you are kneading with a mixer, I think your problem is from too much gluten. I think I posted a link to a VWG calculator earlier, but typically VWG is added at about a rate of 0.5% - 1%, and less is better when using a high gluten flour.

The pies look good, though!
Ed, Interesting. That could be some of the problem as I do get lots of snap back like a rubber band. I thought gluten was to allow stretch.... I also use a Kitchen Aid mixer but do not mix very long and only on low. I used to have similar issues when hand mixing and thought I was not kneading long enough so I got the Kitchen Aid.
 

Ed P

TVWBB Diamond Member
Ed, Interesting. That could be some of the problem as I do get lots of snap back like a rubber band. I thought gluten was to allow stretch.... I also use a Kitchen Aid mixer but do not mix very long and only on low. I used to have similar issues when hand mixing and thought I was not kneading long enough so I got the Kitchen Aid.
Do you use the C-hook or the spiral? Just curious. The C-hook is less efficient, or so I gather. I've been using a food processor the last couple of bakes...here's tonight's batch, 75% Caputo Chef's/25% All-Trumps. I'm liking the many many small bubbles, like a sponge...we'll have to see how it bakes!

EDIT: Added a second pic to show where it started (9/8). It started raining here so I put it back in the fridge to slow the ferment yesterday.
 

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Joe Anshien

TVWBB Emerald Member
Do you use the C-hook or the spiral? Just curious. The C-hook is less efficient, or so I gather. I've been using a food processor the last couple of bakes...here's tonight's batch, 75% Caputo Chef's/25% All-Trumps. I'm liking the many many small bubbles, like a sponge...we'll have to see how it bakes!

EDIT: Added a second pic to show where it started (9/8). It started raining here so I put it back in the fridge to slow the ferment yesterday.
I use a hook. I can not tell what it looks like in the fridge as I cover it in metal bowls.
 

Brett-EDH

TVWBB Diamond Member
Brett, King Arthur 12.7% organic bread flour. Cold fermenting I guess since it was in the fridge. NY style.
Thanks
Joe

Ed, Interesting. That could be some of the problem as I do get lots of snap back like a rubber band. I thought gluten was to allow stretch.... I also use a Kitchen Aid mixer but do not mix very long and only on low. I used to have similar issues when hand mixing and thought I was not kneading long enough so I got the Kitchen Aid.
i don't think you need any dough conditioners in your dry mix. i'd remove anything but the flour, water, yeast, salt and oil.

on your KA mixing, i'd recco at least a 5 minute mix cycyle on level 3. assuming you're using COLD water to start, you could then mix longer. the ssue you'll get into is the longer you mix the warmer the dough will become, basically accelearting the dough rise by raising the dough's temp. but i'd probably not mix for more than 10 minutes using the KA.

you're using a good flour. if you want a "softer" dough, replace some of your gross weight with AP flour which is less crunchy than bread flour. bread flour delivers more body to the pie shell when baking.

NY style pizza is usually a 24 hour ferment, with a longer table top ferment/rise and then the doughballs are formed and containers for the cold rise. pull from fridge around 3 hours before desired time to form pie shells. this warmup will allow the dough to room temp and relax so it'll be a supple and stretchy as possible, then form your pie(s).

forming an shaping a pie is less compicated than people make it out to be. if you;re not comfortable, keep it flat on your work surface and gently work it with your fingers and roate it till round. there's 10,000 videos on how to do this. if you want a referral video, just ask.

and i think that pie tin thingy you're using is no bueno. either use a real screen for ease of sizing and cooking and then deck the pie, or get comfortable making your pie on a wooden peel and gently launch it onto your steel. at 500F you're not going to burn your pizza, you have lots of wiggle room get it right and adjust as your pizza cooks.

and two punchdowns isn't needed. just one after the initial countertop rise is enough as you;re forming balls.
 

Ed P

TVWBB Diamond Member
"Caputo" is a generic description. blue bag or red bag? both use different ferment durations and cook temps.
It's what's on the label.🤷‍♂️
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Here's the All-Trumps (unbleached, unbromated, for use in CA)

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Joe Anshien

TVWBB Emerald Member
i don't think you need any dough conditioners in your dry mix. i'd remove anything but the flour, water, yeast, salt and oil.

on your KA mixing, i'd recco at least a 5 minute mix cycyle on level 3. assuming you're using COLD water to start, you could then mix longer. the ssue you'll get into is the longer you mix the warmer the dough will become, basically accelearting the dough rise by raising the dough's temp. but i'd probably not mix for more than 10 minutes using the KA.
you're using a good flour. if you want a "softer" dough, replace some of your gross weight with AP flour which is less crunchy than bread flour. bread flour delivers more body to the pie shell when baking.
I use warm water - about 100° and usually add the yeast to the water to make sure it is good before pouring into the flour in the mixer. I may not be mixing enough. I usually only do a few minutes on low until it is a nice dough ball and then another minute or 2 on low. I am running low on the bread flour and I think the next bag is AP.
 

 

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