Seeking Input on S-470 Upgrades


 

Victor Clarke

New member
Hello All,

Newbie here on the board (but long-time Weber user). Moving from a Genesis S-330 to a Summit S-470 arriving this week and looking for any input and/or advice ya'll may have on planned upgrades. Here's what I have in mind before firing it up:

1) Replace flavorer bars with rcplanebuyer's.
2) Replace smoker box with rcplanebuyer's kit (already have a dedicated pellet smoker).
3) Replace stock grates with two smaller 70373 grates (~8" used in 600-series) placed on left & right in order to center an opening over the Sear Station for a Weber 7585 GBS grate, 7404 Griddle or Grill Grates.
4) Treat exterior with Everbright ProtectaClear.

The thought process regarding grate replacement is it would be a slick setup for reverse searing (my preference) in that the center Sear Station burner could be used to provide indirect heat for the side grates while simultaneously pre-heating the searing grates (or griddle). Alternately, two of the three GBS Grate, Griddle or Grill Grates could be moved to the side positions with the smoker box replacement grate (~3-3/4") in the center, providing a myriad of cooking options, particularly when using GBS drop-in components.

Well, whatcha' think? Am I missing anything? Any and all comments will be appreciated!
 
Is this a new Summit? If so, seems like replacement of the flavorizer bars wouldn’t be necessary or get you any benefit. If it not new and they are worn out, then rcplanebuyer will take great care of you.

I am not sure I can visualize the space that will be left in the center section if you swap out grates as you describe. It would be cool if the Weber cast iron optional rectangular grate with the crosshatch pattern for the Genesis II would fit there. I kind of doubt it. The round GBS cast iron grate is kind of small, and while I like grill marks spaced out a bit, that grate takes the spacing a bit too far for my taste. You definitely can get some GrillGrates fitted for what you want to do. These are very controversial due to their aluminum composition. Placed over the center with the extra sear burner you will certainly get results, but you would still do so even without the extra burner. I personally really like my GrillGrates. Here is from this afternoon’s grilling:

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Everbrite is a very good idea, and I believe it will extend the life and attractive appearance of your grill.

In any event it sounds like you are committed to going all out for a superb grill. Post pictures when you can!
 
Just use it as is. It's not a bad grill outta the box. The flavorizer bars and grates will be the last things you'll need to be worried about. Mind the rusting out issue they have with the front of the fire box.
 
Hi Jon,

Thanks for the feedback! Yes, it will be a new S-470. Logic behind replacing the bars is multi-fold: 1) because the rcplanebuyers are heavier, they should (theoretically, anyway) retain more heat and spread it out more evenly, 2) it will save me the hassle of changing and seasoning them later, 3) rcplanebuyer will combine shipping with the smoker box kit, and; 3) I hope to sell the original bars (& grates) and figure it will be easier if they are in new condition.

Regarding the grates, I must of confused things. If my research is correct, the grill area is about 28" wide with the smoker box removed. The narrow 70373 grates from the 600-series are listed at 8-1/16" wide each, so installing one on each side should leave an 11-7/8" opening in the center, directly over the Sear Station. I have a pair of GrillGrates (same as yours & like 'em too) coming off the S-330 which will easily fit in that space or can install the Weber GBS grate or Griddle depending on the cook. With already having GrillGrates, I do not plan on using the GBS sear grate you referenced, but will probably try a pan and/or wok at some point. The side grates will be used primarily for the indirect pre-heat portion of the reverse-sear method.

Very much appreciate the input on Everbright also as I have no experience with it. Fortunately, we don't have the rust/corrosion concerns here that you probably have on the Florida coast, but do want to to keep it looking nice.

Thanks Again!

Victor
 
RC's bars are the same thickness as the Summit ones. Main difference is the OEM are 400 series stainless and the RC ones are 300 series. As for heat retention no difference between the 2 metals. So use them as is and if when they rust if it's less than 10 years just tell Weber you want new ones.
 
LMichaels,

Great stuff and very much appreciated! Did not realize both bars are 14-gauge as I've replaced a couple sets (& deflectors) with rcplanebuyers on a Genesis 2000 and S-330 and noted the Weber originals were considerably lighter, so just assumed it would be the same on the Summit. And you're definitely spot on regarding heat retention and the ability to get free replacements for the next ten years. Although I generally prefer 300 vs. 400-series stainless, there's certainly no sense swapping them out just for that.

Speaking of which, reading about the fire box rust-problem did spook me a bit. Regardless of the fact it will be under cover and we don't see hardly any rust or corrosion issues around here, it's a whole different environment under the hood. It was partially the ten year warranty that led me to take a flyer on a Summit. I do expect the fire box (& maybe some other components) may need replacement within, oh let's say, the next 9 years 11 months or so ;). In any event, I wanted something North American made (at least mostly), so it was kind of a choice between possibly doing some repairs or spending $4K+ on something that's not nearly as versatile and cooks way too hot for my purposes. (Just finished rebuilding a Lynx and couldn't hardly get it under 400° with one burner on low and the hood down.) In having six adjustable burners with three different output ratings, I expect the low-end temperature control on the Summit may be unmatched in the industry.

On the grates, changing those out is mostly about maximizing flexibility, accommodating GrillGrates and/or GBS components and simplifying the reverse sear process.

Thank you for the sage advice!

Victor
 
Victor, sounds like you are going to have one heck of a grilling machine when you get done modding it.
Good luck and please post some pictures when you get it all set up.
 
Thanks Bruce,

Will do on the pics. Hopefully, it will be very versatile. The only downside may be that the Mrs. will want me to do more of the cooking... and she's retired, but I'm not :)

Victor
 
Grilling is as good pastime imo. No wonder your wife is so good with you doing all those mods to an already expensive grill
 
Victor the fire box issue is not due to weather issues. It is due to a poor design on the part of Weber. The porcelain does not expand or contract and in the area where the burners fit through it is precisely what is needed but being a VERY different material than the underlying steel it begins to crack and check imperceptibly. This continues and finally the heat, and corrosive elements (juices from cooking, moisture given up from burning gas, etc) take their toll and they fail in the area around the burners exit the fire box. It will occur whether in a desert or the swamps of the Everglades.
I am unsure of the grates themselves on this model (if they're 300 or 400 series stainless) but Dave told me himself he keeps bar spacing the same as stock on Weber replacement grates and the stock ones on the 4xx series Summit are already 9mm so again here too no other advantage will be had spending $$$ on his grates over what comes stock on it other than possible corrosion resistance.
As for reverse searing again here too you would really have no advantage changing anything about the grill. You could simply use one burner (or perhaps the smoking burner) to keep the low (about 250 deg) heat required of that method. I regularly did this on my Summit 450 (first generation Summit) with fantastic results. I taught my brother how to do it on his second gen Summit Silver also. Honestly The Summit should be a VERY versatile grill for you out of the box. The only issue I see with the modern Summit line is longevity due to fire box issues. Otherwise they're very versatile. being able to smoke, go low slow and can put out very fierce heat when called on. And don't over look that rotisserie burner it's not just for spinning food. On my Wolf it is regularly called into duty for making pizzas, baking duties and so on.
I truly do not believe there is anything you could do to improve it's cooking ability out of the box. The only change I would want on the grates is tighter spacing. This is something that is a hot button for me as I hate the way they cheap out by having close to half inch spacing. If anything I would ask Dave to make grates with at least 2 more bars per field section. Now THAT would be a worthwhile upgrade
 
LMichaels,

Thank you very much for your continued input. It is very valuable to me and greatly appreciated! (So is Rockford, Ill., as UPS Airlines is the horse that pulls our business cart.

The Summit arrived today, so I'm married to it now, potential firebox corrosion issues and all. As you clearly explain, I suspected those were more a matter of the environment within, rather outside, the box, particularly due to the acids/salts from meats and moisture being drawn in from the atmosphere. (We pilot-types understand that - or at least are supposed to). Again though, I was unaware of the porcelain cracking problem. Based on your advice, the plan at this point will be to keep a "hawk's eye" out for any cracking and make a warranty claim as soon as it appears. If it becomes a persistent problem, we do have some aircraft-grade, high-temp coatings available that might be able to mitigate the issue. (Wouldn't it be great if Dave were to fashion a 304 stainless box though?)

Regarding low-end temperature control, I'm hopeful we might even get it down into the low 200's using either the Sear Station or smoker burner on low. I was able to get the S-330 down to under 275° using only the Sear Station burner. With the Summit being a littler larger cavity, it hopefully will at least get a little below that, but even the same 275 will work for my purposes. If you think it would helpful, I have a Thermoworks Smoke and Dot, so can do some testing to measure the grate temps using different burner set-ups and report them back.

On changing the grates, please understand – like several others around here – I'm a GrillGrates fan, and they will best be utilized centered on the Sear Station so as to get them as hot as possible. Short of removing (in which case I couldn't do a reverse sear) or replacing the original rod grates with the narrower 600-series type, there doesn't appear to be any other practical way to do that. Jon and Bruce asked for pics of the setup (which I will try to honor) and think those will better explain the intent (gonna' be next week though).

Regarding the IR burner, that was the primary motivation for upgrading from the 330 to a 470. We are planning on trying a Prime Rib roast for Christmas (with a dry run in between), but after having done a bunch of rotisserie chickens on the 330, I was concerned about not having a good crust on the roast. Also, we have a big pizza stone, but I never thought about using the IR for pizza. That is a brilliant idea and we we will definitely try it next time!

Again, your input is invaluable. Let's see.. so far, you've saved me a bunch of money on flavorizer bars, taught me to watch for cracking porcelain in the fire box and to use the IR burner for pizza.

Thank you so much!

Victor
 
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Hey Bruce,

Well, actually, she told me tonight to "quit spending so much on barbecue stuff". She said the same thing when I got our Mak smoker though... until she tasted the ribs that came off it. Haven't heard a complaint since. Hoping it will be the same this time :).
 
Victor you fly into KRFD? If you are doing so wave as you fly over my house. Your planes (depending on wind/weather conditions) sometimes come in so low over my yard that when we're outside in the summer/fall enjoying a bonfire the landing lights will flood my yard with light. I am about 4 miles E/NE of the airport. Maybe you can look me up for a brew and que on a layover LOL but remember 24 hours between bottle and throttle. Honestly I think if you give the grill a chance to do it's thing you will find GrillGrates to be an entire waste of time and $$$.
The grill puts out so much heat per sq in there is no need. If you get past the mistakes Weber made on them pertaining to longevity (the fire box issues) the Summit especially in the X70 configuration is about as nice a cooking machine as $$$ will buy. It will outperform the Genesis by a good margin (the new style ones 2011 and on) not so much the old ones especially the 1st generation ones.
I cannot offer any advice to increase longevity of the fire box as it seems to be a luck of the draw on how the porcelain holds up. Take our mod Chris for example, he is happily using his 1st gen Summit with no fire box issues, yet people like myself have had 2 front panels fail in rapid order. Go figure. I know it's not environmental. Perhaps something to do with heat/cool cycles. But I can tell you that you will enjoy cooking on it immensely. If you like pizza on the grill search for some of my photo shoots of pizza on my Wolf using the IR burner. Most of the photos are using a premade pizza crust due to time constraints with wife working and such, But, when she has the time she makes a pizza dough to die for especially on the grill.
Have fun!!
 
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LMichaels,

Nope, won't be flying over your house. Our company is referred to as a "small feeder" contractor to UPS. We fly smaller, prop-driven airplanes (e.g., Cessna Caravans) covering an area from Fresno in Central California north to the Oregon border delivering UPS next-day air shipments to smaller communities. Basically, the UPS jets (or "brown tails" as we call 'em) fly in from Louisville and Rockford to Sacramento and Oakland, then we take it out from there in the morning and bring back local outbound shipments in the afternoon.

Very interesting you should note the heat/cool cycles. One of the things we face in aircraft air-cooled piston engines is cylinder cracking due to rapid heating and/or cooling. Evidently, the problem is related to the fact that the cylinders are made of an alloy, which tend to separate into base metals during the heating/cooling cycle. The phenomena is highly exacerbated by rapid rates of heating/cooling, much more so than the actual amount of temperature change. It would make sense that the dissimilar porcelain and steel material properties would also have that tendency (possibly to a much greater degree than alloys). If I understand correctly, Chris lives in the very moderate climate of the Bay Area (where "really cold" means anything below 50°), so the rate of temperature change is slower there, both up & down, than in Rockford (particularly in Winter). Who knows for sure if that's the issue? (But it's fun to speculate.)

Regarding the GrillGrates, I obviously can't yet speak to how they'll work on the Summit, but they did help a lot on the S-330. Plus, I already own them and they fit the Summit, so no sense in not at least trying them out. That being said, my wife prefers searing on the back (flat) side of the GrillGrates, so I will also be trying the Weber griddle and GBS skillet prior to settling on any particular method. I figure the big deal is to get whatever will be used centered over the Sear Station in order to obtain max temp.

I will definitely check out your pizza photos. We have a 16" stone and buy the pre-made stuff too for the same reasons. I must ask though, why are you doing pizza at all? Chicago-land pizza is probably the most sinfully-good meal I've ever had. It's like a drug. One "hit" and you're addicted. Probably the only reason I'm not is that we can't get 'em out here. I've got a cousin in Morton Grove who I hardly know and think about making an excuse to fly out and see her just so we can go out to Lou Malnati's or one of the others. Man, that is good stuff! Of course, my sister's in Phoenix and they have a Malnati's now. Oh, then there's a convention I could go to in Scottsdale... (Maybe pizza rehab is the better option ;)
 
Well Chicago area is not out here where "Moses lost his sandals" LOL WE oddly enough do have a Portillo's in nearby to me Rockford. I have it occasionally but while it's pretty good stuff I really don't eat it that often. My tastes for say the old fashioned Italian Beef leaned more to the little stands one finds throughout Chicago which sell old fashioned Chicago dogs, Polish and beef. Many times wrapped in parchment paper and wonderfully greasy french fries. I just don't get into the "city" much if at all. Closest I get to now is my dad's in Arlington Hts. and I was there just last week and guess what..............we picked up Lou Malnati's for him, his brother (my uncle now 93), my uncle's grand son and one of my cousins and we had a nice feast.
Lou's is great pizza perhaps the best there is when looking for deep dish Chicago style. After all it was Lou himself along with his brothers and a couple others who "invented" the very deep pan style pizza and introduced it to Chicago in the 50's at the also famous Pizzeria Uno (and now Due') when we started going there there was only Uno LOL But I get a hankering for pizza like it's made in Italy. Flash cooked in VERY VERY hot wood fired ovens, very thin crust and very little on top. A little tomato, some Mozzarella and a little fresh basil. Light, VERY crispy, and wonderfully flavorful. My Wolf can mimic that pizza very well. Your 470 will also be able to do it. You will need the stone though as the stock grates from Weber are a little too far spaced but it may be at least worth a try without the stone. If you can do it without do so as you will get a very flavorful crust. Deep dish requires a totally different technique using a pan (I use my cast iron pans when we do them). Lower heat and MUCH longer cooking times. We do them on the grill also. But that is another chapter LOL.
Funny you mention Moron Grove (the misspelling is intentional) as I hate the place. My dad moved us out of the city after grade school to MG and I to this day have not forgiven him for that. Though I still have a very good friend who lives there not far from Oriole Park.
As an adult and on my second marriage I moved back to the city. Still miss it to this day. Anyway it was a long way around as to why we make home made very thin pizza on our own grill :D
Maybe one day you can work your way up to a brown tail.............. Anyway enjoy your Summit, mind that front panel, give it a chance without gimmicks it's a great grill to cook on. I may have a lot of gripes with Weber but as a company not with the performance of the grill(s) especially the older original based designed ones. TO me a Genesis with NS burners is NOT a Genesis. Only an EW burner layout qualifies as "Genesis".
Have fun!
 

 

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