Brisket weirdness


 

JayHeyl

TVWBB Pro
Bought a prime packer at Costco a couple months ago and it's been sitting in the refrigerator ever since. Based on my reading here I was sure it was still fine. No leakage, despite quite a lot of protein seeping out of the meat into the cryobag over the last week. I figured it was time to finally cook it. Trimmed it up yesterday and put it on the smoker today. Simple salt & pepper rub. I arched it over my rib rack to make it fit. Worked quite well.

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So here's the weirdness. Given the early darkness and my comparatively late start on this I had no delusions of doing the entire cook on the WSM. My plan was to take it to 170F with the smoker at 275F, then wrap it in foil and finish it in the oven. At three hours into the cook the internal hit 149F and stayed there for over two hours. At one point it actually went backwards a bit. At five hours it had finally started to climb a little, hitting 152F. I decided to foil and move it to the oven at this point. I didn't think it was going to be done for eating today so I wanted to put a meat loaf on the smoker. I foil the brisket and put it in a 275F oven. About an hour later I figure I should stick the ChefAlarm probe in it just to track the progress. Everywhere I stick the probe in the flat I'm reading 200F or more. There's a bit of resistance still, but it's very close to being done. The center of the point is still about 195F.

~150F for two hours. I foil and it jumps 50F in an hour. I'm very confused by this. I get the evaporative cooling thing. Maybe it was poised to take off again on the smoker and wrapping in foil turbocharged the leap, but it still seems too far, too fast. Ideas? Ideas on what to do with a smoked meat loaf it looks like I won't actually need?
 
I don't recall the details but if memory serves I remember a post or two where you discussed wide swings between thermometers or probes, and a shoulder or something turning to mush after holding. Have you ruled out a defective probe? Or when it hit 152F did you take several samples?
 
The pork butt turning to mush was due to putting four right-off-the-smoker wrapped butts in a very good cooler and "resting" them for several hours. They continued "cooking" in the cooler due to the thermal mass involved. Eventually almost all the collagen was rendered and there was nothing holding the fibers together. At least that's my working theory based on feedback from various folks here. Since that incident I always let large pieces of meat rest at room temperature until they've dropped below the point where collagen will be rendered at a significant rate.

I didn't take multiple samples when taking the brisket off the smoker because it was clearly still a long way from being done. I did take many samples after getting the 200F reading and they were all reasonably consistent. Only the point registered slightly lower temps, about 195F. There was variation within the flat but just by a few degrees as would be expected.

I've been simply sticking the Smoke air probe through the silicone grommet, which leaves the tip about two inches inside the smoker. Temps fluctuated normally during the cook but stayed at 275F or a bit above most of the time. I don't worry too much about the air temp measured this way being a bit above my target because I know the probe is sitting in the path of hot air coming around the pan into the cooking chamber. The lid temp hovered about 250F most of the time.

The other thing that might possibly be of significance here is the age of the brisket. I bought it three months ago and it's been sitting in the bottom of the refrigerator ever since. When I opened it I was expecting a somewhat rancid odor but there was nothing like that at all. A mild odor but not rancid smelling. Most of the surface fat had an unattractive coloring but that was easily remedied with a sharp knife. I wouldn't think the age of the brisket would impact its thermodynamic characteristics. Mass is still mass. But it's one more possible variable.

I should add that regardless of the very odd temperatures involved, the results were quite tasty. Not quite as smoky as I'd have liked but that often seems to be the case on the day of smoking. Even so, two of us polished off almost half of the flat. And the meat loaf I smoked got put in the refrigerator untouched. Lots of leftovers this week.
 
I'm really having a hard time with the idea that 3 month old brisket had not spoiled? I realize that the larger the chunk of beef the longer it lasts without having to freeze it, but 3 months seems like a long time to me. Is it really realistic to think 3 month old fresh beef is still ok to consume?
 
I'm really having a hard time with the idea that 3 month old brisket had not spoiled?

Daniel Vaughn of TMBBQ writes of a 1 year brisket, along with additional examples of extended wet aging of beef:

https://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq/the-year-old-brisket/

"As for wet-aging briskets, some pitmasters swear that leaving them in their cooler for a couple weeks improves the flavor and tenderness. At Franklin Barbecue, they wet-age their briskets between 14 and 40 days. “Around forty days, things get a little funny,” Franklin told me, but there hasn’t been the same level of intrigue on really prolonged wet-aging as there has been for pricey, dry-aged steaks."
 
I'm really having a hard time with the idea that 3 month old brisket had not spoiled? I realize that the larger the chunk of beef the longer it lasts without having to freeze it, but 3 months seems like a long time to me. Is it really realistic to think 3 month old fresh beef is still ok to consume?
I don't claim to have inside industry knowledge, but from what I've read I think most people are under a significant misconception about the age of the meat they buy. It may be just days from side of beef to table, but it's almost always a lot longer than that since that side of beef was walking around chewing cud. Fancy restaurants will often brag of beef that's been dry-aging for weeks or months.

This brisket was vacuum packed at the packing plant in heavy plastic. Nothing that wasn't in there to start got in during the time since it left the plant.

Had the packaging been breached or had it swelled up I would have thrown it out, but it was fine. Lots of liquid protein well secured within the bag so I knew it was fully intact.

I'm not saying I recommend "aging" your brisket this long, though this one certainly came out okay despite the odd temperature profile.

My niece came by today and tried a bit of the meat loaf I put on after pulling the brisket off the smoker. She said it was the best meat loaf she'd ever had. I personally think she's had limited exposure to good meat loaf, but I happily accepted the compliment anyway. I wasn't quite as impressed with it. Not that it was bad, just that it didn't completely wow me. Next time I'm going to use something a bit more assertive than sage in the mix and maybe leave it on longer at a lower temp. And use oak or hickory instead of cherry and peach.
 
Well, obviously the meat was ok to eat since you're able to tell us about it. But what you are saying about meat taking a while to get from being a cow to being put into a meat display case only means it's even older than I would think it was! I guess thinking about it the key is the packaging has to be completely sealed and intact or all bets are off. I work at a large food distributor and the most we hold meat is for 45 days before freezing it. And then we tell the customer that it's only good for another 7 days after it reaches the 45 days from pack date. Our local grocery stores generally discount meat only a few days after they put it out in the display case but that is repackaged meat and not in cryovac packaging.
 
There's probably a lot of things at work here, not the least of which is consumer perception of quality and freshness. I have relatives who view the "best by" date as a binary switch. It's fine to eat right up to that date. They won't touch it the next day. I think manufacturers know this and take advantage of it by reducing the "best" period for their products, resulting in perfectly good food being thrown out and replaced. My experience with this brisket would suggest Costco's "sell by" date, which was like four days after the pack date, is vastly more about perception of freshness than it is actual quality and safety of the meat.

The other thing is the "sell by" safety guidelines are accounting for some level of improper handling and cooking by the consumer. The question for that isn't how long will this meat be safe if handled properly but how long will it be safe if mishandled and undercooked. When you're cooking literally for hours and taking the final internal temperature to over 200F, you've obviously killed off every pathogen that might be in that piece of meat.

So at that point it's just about quality of the finished product. As mentioned in the article Chris linked, a year of "aging" results in some not very attractive changes in the meat. Apparently the tipping point is somewhere between three months and a year because this brisket was still very tasty.
 
I smoke butts at 225-235F. Through trial and error, I now foil all of my butts at just under 150F. They pretty much go right through any stall. Logically, it should work on beef the same.
 
This is just a guess but maybe after three months, enough water has been lost (Nathan Myhrvoid) or enough of the collagen has broken down (other camps) that the stall has shifted to 150, rather than 170? That is, the amount of water that is left is minimal so the temp required to "break" the stall, is lowered as well. And that variations in the stall reflect the variation of water content in a brisket?
 
I'm really having a hard time with the idea that 3 month old brisket had not spoiled? I realize that the larger the chunk of beef the longer it lasts without having to freeze it, but 3 months seems like a long time to me. Is it really realistic to think 3 month old fresh beef is still ok to consume?
Why wouldn't it be? Not only do I buy decent briskets when I see them (in cryo) but they frequently sit in the fridge for weeks or even months before I get to them. The last one I did was at least 3 months in the fridge. I have a grass-fed and -finished brisket from a ranch in Washington state in one of my fridges now that's been in there going on 2 months. I have a slab of plate ribs from the same animal that's been in there that long as well.

As long as they were properly cryo'd - as is often the case - they will simply wet age. At low fridge temps it's rare to find spoilage. That requires access to air and spoilage bacteria or mold. I don't necessarily recommend long fridge times but as long as the cryo is intact and the meat is properly cooked once removed from its packaging it should be just fine. It becomes "okay to consume" with proper cooking.
 
~150F for two hours. I foil and it jumps 50F in an hour. I'm very confused by this. I get the evaporative cooling thing. Maybe it was poised to take off again on the smoker and wrapping in foil turbocharged the leap, but it still seems too far, too fast. Ideas? Ideas on what to do with a smoked meat loaf it looks like I won't actually need?
I find this to be common. The cooking dynamics change once you foil. So, the stall pre-foil was fairly normal and you were right, imo, to wrap when you did. (Me, I cook at 50-100˚ higher than you and wrap about 2.5 hours into the cook, when the brisket has nice color. I don't bother temping the meat.) Once you foil the heat transfer becomes much more efficient as evaporative cooling ceases and the moist environment inside the foil and the meat much more readily transfers heat. The leads to much more even cooking.

Next time, sure, stick the Chef Alarm in after an hour in foil (I do) but internal temps are entirely immaterial. Use the probe to get a feel the meat and its resistance. Re-wrap and cook another 15-20 before feeling it again. Repeat, if needed, till the feel of the probe feels like the brisket is tender. Internal temp does not matter one whit, what you read here and elsewhere notwithstanding.
 
I find this to be common. The cooking dynamics change once you foil. So, the stall pre-foil was fairly normal and you were right, imo, to wrap when you did. (Me, I cook at 50-100˚ higher than you and wrap about 2.5 hours into the cook, when the brisket has nice color. I don't bother temping the meat.) Once you foil the heat transfer becomes much more efficient as evaporative cooling ceases and the moist environment inside the foil and the meat much more readily transfers heat. The leads to much more even cooking.

Next time, sure, stick the Chef Alarm in after an hour in foil (I do) but internal temps are entirely immaterial. Use the probe to get a feel the meat and its resistance. Re-wrap and cook another 15-20 before feeling it again. Repeat, if needed, till the feel of the probe feels like the brisket is tender. Internal temp does not matter one whit, what you read here and elsewhere notwithstanding.


Did I understand this correctly, you cook brisket at anywhere from 325 to 375?
 
You did, and yes I do. I haven't bothered with low/slow for brisket in many years. I have a few posts from probably 10 years ago or so here on the board detailing what I do but it's pretty simple: Minion the start; brisket and smokewood right on at the outset; expect temps to trend up for an hour or better, looking for 325, 350 even 375 - it doesn't matter; foil when the brisket is nicely colored, about 2.5 hours in; probe test the first time 60-75 minutes later (internal temp is immaterial - one probes to feel the meat, not check the temp); check 15-20 later; repeat if needed, checking sooner. Irrespective of brisket size, they're done in 4 hours, give or take 10-20 minutes. (I did a prime grade packer - 13 pounds - last month in 3 hours. It was very good but I don't really recommend it. It takes even higher temps and can be a PITA.)

I'm looking for a tender, juicy finish with a flavorful bark (don't get me started on how wildly overrated I think "Texas" briskets are with their salt-and-pepper-only ridiculousness) and I'm looking for this every time - and I achieve it. Anyone can. It's quite simple really. I will stress again: internal temp does not matter. The focus on internal temp is what screws up many an aspiring barbecue cook. Just for another example: A week after my last brisket I did another one, 14 pounds or so cut into thirds and individually vac-packed; cooked sous vide at 135˚ for 72 hours then cooled the pieces, rubbed them and stuck them in smoke for a couple hours to get flavored/finished. I doubt the internal ever reached 160. Maybe, didn't check, but it doesn't matter. They were already tender when they went into the smoke. Anyway, delicious. No internal temp target required.
 

 

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