KCBS comps should supply meat


 

Scott Terril

TVWBB Member
I'm really curious to see how some of you more experienced competitors feel about this. We cooked in the Smoking in the Golden Valley competition last weekend. This was our second sanctioned competition and although we finished about the same as in our first one, we felt we improved significantly in each category.

Friday night we walked around and talked to quite a few teams. Slap's, Gettin' Basted, Wood Hook, etc. Wes from Wood Hook and Randy from Eli's Pit Crew were particularly great guys. The consensus of opinion from the teams we spoke to was that the vast majority of the competitors were using Wagyu briskets and many were using Compart ribs. We noticed this in the Jammin' in JC competition as well.

When we combined this information with our results from our first two competitions, we came up with a discouraging conclusion. Even as our skill level increases through more competition and more practice, we are going to struggle to place highly in ribs and particularly brisket unless we significantly increase the amount we spend on meat. Granted it is a small sample size, but our best scores in both competitions by significant margins were chicken and pork. The two cheapest meats.

My partner has two college aged sons and I have one in college and one soon to be in college. While we both make comfortable livings, neither of our families can really afford for us to spend $650+ per competition on meat. ($400 on two SRF briskets, $200 on a Compart BBQ pack, plus chicken and ancillary products)

My point/question is that if KCBS REALLY wanted to make things truly competitive, why don't they supply teams all the same meat? I would willingly pay an extra $100-$150 over the entry fee if the competition supplied the meat. Wouldn't this more accurately reflect the skills of the cooks?

Now I want to make one thing perfectly clear. Even if we had been cooking with $1000 worth of meat, we wouldn't have placed in the top 10 of either of our competitions. We are still learning, building our skill sets, and refining our recipes. That being said, I do believe we would have finished significantly higher if everyone had been cooking from the same baseline of meat. (I do believe that is the first time in my 52 years of life I have ever used the phrase "baseline of meat".)

I am curious to hear everyone's opinion.

Thanks!
Scott
 
Sorry but I can't agree. I've never competed and most likely never will but to my way of thinking, picking out good meat is part of the competition. If everyone is forced to use the same meat, why not make them use the same cooker, rub, wood, charcoal, & sauce?
 
Sorry but I can't agree. I've never competed and most likely never will but to my way of thinking, picking out good meat is part of the competition. If everyone is forced to use the same meat, why not make them use the same cooker, rub, wood, charcoal, & sauce?

Phil, I appreciate your point. I would respond, however, that with skill and practice you can produce as good of results on a $300 or $400 WSM as you can on a Jambo or Yoder. Wood, sauces, rub, etc. are not cost prohibitive. Unless there's some ground unicorn horn rub that costs $500 of which I am unaware... :cool:

If you clone Harry Soo or Mike Davis and have them compete against themselves, one with a Sam's Club packer and one with a SRF wagyu brisket, which one do you think is going to win?

I guess my point is why not reward the best cooks and not just the ones with the deepest pockets?

Just my 2 cents...
Scott
 
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I've never competed and don't plan on it because of the costs. My impression even going to small area comps that it's kind of a rich man's game. Aren't there some entry level competitions that work the way you suggest? I know they do that with some of the steak competitions.
 
Scott,

While you may not like what I write here, and that is most certainly your choice, it comes from years of observation while judging KCBS sanctioned competitions as well as getting involved with teams.

What I'm reading in your post is something that is often seen from newer cooks and teams. Basically, why can't you make it easier for me to win. If one thinks that just supplying a more costly meat will automatically raise your level of cooking, they are mistaken. There needs to be some realization by these new teams that those at the top of their game did not automatically advance to top. There has been years of practice and years of competitions without winning top honors.

FYI… KCBS is not in the business of supplying meat. That would be the purview of each event's organizer.

Another FYI… Many a top level team is cooking Smithfield pork (ribs & butt), purchased from Walmart or similar.

While SRF does supply excellent brisket, they are not the only game in town. Last month, Burnin' and Lootin' (TVWBB member Jerry A) won 1st place in brisket supplied by Brandt Beef against some very stiff competition. http://www.kcbs.us/event/7016/3rd-annual-hot-qs-cold-brews-bbq-championship

If I could supply you with a couple of suggestions, they would be…

Take a KCBS CBJ class and become the 10th KCBS CBJ in your city. And then judge some contests. See and taste what is being handed in.

Take some tell-all classes from top rated cooks / pitmasters..

Sign up and compete at one of Sterling Ball's / Smithfield's Guinea Pig competitions. This is one competition where all meats are provided. 2017 is the first year the Guinea Pig competitions have happened outside California.

I do wish you and your team BBQ Excellence.

It will take time and practice practice practice to get to the top. Once there, it will take practice practice and more practice to remain at the top.

Bob
 
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For those not familiar with the Guinea Pig comps, read this FB post by Sterling Ball in 2014; some details may have changed, I don't know.

1 Choice brisket, 2 pork butts, 3 slabs of ribs, and 9 chicken thighs. Your meat is selected by ping pong ball drawing. Be careful what you ask for...did you draw an excellent brisket or an average brisket? :D

-----

https://www.facebook.com/bigpoppasmokers/posts/10152091705045768

The Guinea Pig
Promoted by Arlie Bragg along with Big Poppa Smokers
A private back to the basics BBQ contest
Feb 22, 2014
Indio, California

Remember when BBQ contests were about friends getting together to see who could cook the cheapest cuts of meat the best? Remember when a WSM was a big cooker? Tired of $800 contests? Tired of finishing 3rd and not getting any money? Big Poppa Smokers is here to try a new format. This, “back to the basics,” contest is essentially a cost-controlled contest with a redistribution of the prize pool, and a weekend in the Palm Springs area during peak season.

BACK TO THE BASICS
Here is the deal. This is a stripped down contest with a single entry fee of $400 that includes all your meat. That’s right, everybody cooks the same meat. Meat is assigned randomly by a ping pong ball draw. Meat provided is 1 choice brisket, a 2-pack of butts, a 3-pack of ribs and 9 chicken thighs.

Your $400 entry also allows you to stay on-site and enjoy the amenities of our host site, The Shadow Hills RV Resort (http://www.shadowhillsrvresort.com) for two nights, a Saturday night mega potluck, heated pool, exercise and game room... and it's even kid and pet friendly!

We are shooting for 50 teams with a $10,000 guaranteed prize purse. But in the, “Back to the Basics,” series we pay the top ten overall and top ten in each category.

We are also hosting a Kid's Que and Dessert Competition. Kid's Que will have no entry fee, and any Kid's Teams that enter will be provided with a Mini Weber that they get to keep after the contest!

On Saturday, we are going to have a post-awards dessert potluck, all teams are welcome to contribute their best dessert dish! Pizza will also be available for teams during the pot luck.

The Guinea Pig is a KCBS competitor series event with KCBS scoring, rules, judging, and reps. It is everything you would find at a KCBS contest, except there is no team of the year or category points. Kelly and Kathleen McIntosh are the KCBS Contest Representatives for this event.​
 
I am in my second year of competing and we have done about 12 in the last 2 years. Competitions providing meat would not have the impact you would want. There is a reason the guys cooking every weekend tend to be the ones winning most of the time. It's all about consistency and the top guys in the country have figured that out. That's not to say you can't have success competing "part time," we have been fortunate enough to get calls at almost every competition we have done typically with meat from the grocery store or Costco. And personally I have seen many times Costco Prime briskets beating Wagyu and I've seen ribs bought at Wal-Mart beat Compart Durocs.
 
What I'm reading in your post is something that is often seen from newer cooks and teams. Basically, why can't you make it easier for me to win. If one thinks that just supplying a more costly meat will automatically raise your level of cooking, they are mistaken. There needs to be some realization by these new teams that those at the top of their game did not automatically advance to top. There has been years of practice and years of competitions without winning top honors.

FYI… KCBS is not in the business of supplying meat. That would be the purview of each event's organizer.


Bob

Bob and everyone, thank you for taking the time to respond. Bob, I would just like to point out what I said in my original post:

"Now I want to make one thing perfectly clear. Even if we had been cooking with $1000 worth of meat, we wouldn't have placed in the top 10 of either of our competitions. We are still learning, building our skill sets, and refining our recipes. That being said, I do believe we would have finished significantly higher if everyone had been cooking from the same baseline of meat. (I do believe that is the first time in my 52 years of life I have ever used the phrase "baseline of meat".)"

I am not asking for anyone to make it "easier for us to win" but for a level playing field where a team that can afford to drop $500-$700 in meat per event doesn't have a distinct advantage.

My partner has taken the KCBS judging class and I intend to as well. We also plan to take some classes and continue practicing throughout the winter after our last competition next month. Even so, we don't realistically expect to start placing for a year or two.

You are right in that KCBS is not in the business of providing meat, but there are in charge of the rules governing sanctioned competitions. They could, if they so chose, mandate that the events provide the same meat to all competitors.

Eric Forrester put it better than I can in this interesting article: https://mabbqa.com/2017/02/get-know-eric-forrester-ironman-kcbs-competition-mason-dixon-bbq-supply/

Thanks again for everyone's thoughtful responses.
Scott
 
For those not familiar with the Guinea Pig comps, read this FB post by Sterling Ball in 2014; some details may have changed, I don't know.

1 Choice brisket, 2 pork butts, 3 slabs of ribs, and 9 chicken thighs. Your meat is selected by ping pong ball drawing. Be careful what you ask for...did you draw an excellent brisket or an average brisket? :D

-----

https://www.facebook.com/bigpoppasmokers/posts/10152091705045768

The Guinea Pig
Promoted by Arlie Bragg along with Big Poppa Smokers
A private back to the basics BBQ contest
Feb 22, 2014
Indio, California

Remember when BBQ contests were about friends getting together to see who could cook the cheapest cuts of meat the best? Remember when a WSM was a big cooker? Tired of $800 contests? Tired of finishing 3rd and not getting any money? Big Poppa Smokers is here to try a new format. This, “back to the basics,” contest is essentially a cost-controlled contest with a redistribution of the prize pool, and a weekend in the Palm Springs area during peak season.

BACK TO THE BASICS
Here is the deal. This is a stripped down contest with a single entry fee of $400 that includes all your meat. That’s right, everybody cooks the same meat. Meat is assigned randomly by a ping pong ball draw. Meat provided is 1 choice brisket, a 2-pack of butts, a 3-pack of ribs and 9 chicken thighs.

Your $400 entry also allows you to stay on-site and enjoy the amenities of our host site, The Shadow Hills RV Resort (http://www.shadowhillsrvresort.com) for two nights, a Saturday night mega potluck, heated pool, exercise and game room... and it's even kid and pet friendly!

We are shooting for 50 teams with a $10,000 guaranteed prize purse. But in the, “Back to the Basics,” series we pay the top ten overall and top ten in each category.

We are also hosting a Kid's Que and Dessert Competition. Kid's Que will have no entry fee, and any Kid's Teams that enter will be provided with a Mini Weber that they get to keep after the contest!

On Saturday, we are going to have a post-awards dessert potluck, all teams are welcome to contribute their best dessert dish! Pizza will also be available for teams during the pot luck.

The Guinea Pig is a KCBS competitor series event with KCBS scoring, rules, judging, and reps. It is everything you would find at a KCBS contest, except there is no team of the year or category points. Kelly and Kathleen McIntosh are the KCBS Contest Representatives for this event.​

Thanks Chris! I'll watch for any of these events in our area.

Scott
 
I would like to see no electric/battery temperature control systems used...that would level the competition!
 
I would like to see no electric/battery temperature control systems used...that would level the competition!

How would this level the competition? My Digi Q still doesn't make my $300 WSM cook like a Jambo. From what I've seen most of the top guys who cook on WSM's use some sort of blower system and I think in most cases its not because they can't manage the fire in their cookers, it's because they enjoy sleeping.
 
By the way, just reading an old post by Sterling Ball/Big Poppa Smokers on "another forum" in which he says:

"If you are in an area where I'm cooking, come by my camp and if it's Friday I'll show you the fridge...Foster Farms commodity chicken, Smithfield Extra Tender ribs, Smithfield Prime butts, and SRF Briskets one black and one gold 18-20."​

I don't know if the invitation still stands, or if he's still using the type and amount of product indicated, but he was doing so when he posted this in April 2016. He was putting his money into the brisket, not so much the other cuts...ribs from Walmart, butts from Sam's Club, FF chicken (a California-based brand sold at almost every supermarket in the state and at Costco).

Now...what he saves on Walmart ribs and Sam's Club butts he makes up for in volume: :D

https://www.facebook.com/SterlingBi...41828.425702557612618/781268382056032/?type=3
 
I disagree.

First off, no one is asking you to enter the contest. It is an "at your own risk/cost" event.

Second, IF they did supply the meat I am fairly sure the entrance fee would raise significantly to offset their cost.

Third, a "level playing field", IMO, is the same as someone accusing another person that they are not playing fair. If you're a person who is concerned about a level playing field then to REALLY level it would require every entrant use the same type smoker, the same wood, the same, the same, the same.

Fourth, what are your goals. Do you smoke to feed your family or to win contests? From everything I've seen (on TV) the entrants have even stated that they do not cook the same way at home that they do for comps. I prefer to feed my family. My concern is that they like what they've eaten and have full bellies. My "award" is when they take a second (or more) helping.
 
One could argue that today's KCBS contest is akin to 30 teams showing up at a race track, most with stock cars, some with midget racers, and a few newbies with street cars. The only rule: You've got to show up with a car!

I don't think KCBS will ever mandate that meat be provided by the organizer, but more contests where organizers do this would be interesting to me as a judge and probably to teams, too. The Guinea Pig contests prove that with sponsors picking up some of the cost, and limiting the quality and amount of meat provided to each contestant, you can create an affordable competition experience for teams. They win or lose by applying their unique skills, abilities, techniques, etc. to the meat they get in their box.

There is also a bit of random luck involved...some briskets, butts, and ribs will be better than others from box to box, so it's up to each team to adjust and do the best they can with what they get. Providing meat does not literally create a "level playing field" in terms of the meat itself or in terms of the contest in general, it just takes the element of meat selection out of the hands of the teams and contributes to lower contest entry fees, which could make the sport more accessible to more people.

As I said, I'd love to judge a contest like this some day. But I now realize I'm talking way above my pay grade about this subject, I'm not a competitor, only a judge. :D
 
Why is cooking for a contest different then cooking for family and friends? Isn't it about good food? Are judges looking for something beside taste and appearance? What's the difference between what Aaron cooks in his restaurant and what he cooks for the comps? I never been to a competition so I don't really understand.
 
To further the race car analogy, didn't they have a racing series where everyone essentially got the same car? IROC, I believe? It's defunct now.
 
Bill,

Thank you for your input. Here are my thoughts (in bold).

I disagree.

First off, no one is asking you to enter the contest. It is an "at your own risk/cost" event.
Most competitions I've seen advertise in some manner and seem to want MORE teams, not fewer. So yeah, they kind of are asking us to enter.

Second, IF they did supply the meat I am fairly sure the entrance fee would raise significantly to offset their cost.
In my original post, I said I would be perfectly willing to pay an extra $100-$150 over the entry fee.

Third, a "level playing field", IMO, is the same as someone accusing another person that they are not playing fair. If you're a person who is concerned about a level playing field then to REALLY level it would require every entrant use the same type smoker, the same wood, the same, the same, the same.
At no point did I ever suggest anyone was not "playing fair". There is nothing wrong with taking every advantage you can get under the rules. I am suggesting the rules should change to focus on the skill of the cook and not how much they can pay for the meat.

Fourth, what are your goals. Do you smoke to feed your family or to win contests? From everything I've seen (on TV) the entrants have even stated that they do not cook the same way at home that they do for comps. I prefer to feed my family. My concern is that they like what they've eaten and have full bellies. My "award" is when they take a second (or more) helping.
Uhhhh, would kind of like to do both? If competing means my family starves, I'll have to think about it but will probably go with feeding my family... :cool:

The best analogy I can give is a personal one. I have been hustling... errrrr... playing competitive pool off and on for 35 years. I can walk into any bar in town with a pool table and beat 95% of the people there with a broom stick. That being said, there are about a dozen guys in town who are right around my skill level. Is it impossible for me to beat them with a broom stick? No, but when the margin for error is so small every advantage helps.

The difference between 2nd and 3rd at the 2016 AR Open competition was 34 THOUSANDTHS of a point.

I've seen several people mention "Well, then everyone should use the same smoker, wood, rub, etc." Keeping in mind I've only competed in two sanctioned events, I've never seen anyone turn in a smoker or wood to be judged. I think they are meat cooking contests. Those things of course are important tools, but meat is the raison d'être. Sauces, rubs, wood, charcoal are not cost prohibitive. Smokers can be incredibly expensive but are not a recurring cost. An extra $500 a competition saved in meat costs over say 20 events a year... Guess what? You can run out and buy that Jambo...

Everyone have a great day!
Scott
 
Why is cooking for a contest different then cooking for family and friends? Isn't it about good food? Are judges looking for something beside taste and appearance? What's the difference between what Aaron cooks in his restaurant and what he cooks for the comps? I never been to a competition so I don't really understand.

On our chicken thighs, we take the skin off and scrape the fat off and then put the skins back on. Would never do that at home. My family likes their ribs dry and spicy. We sauce our comp ribs and would never go as spicy as I do at home. I don't crutch (wrap in foil) pork butts at home but do in a competition. Just a lot of little things are done to please judges that your family really doesn't care about...
 
One can be very competitive with Costco briskets and Smithfield pork. If you do choose SRF, no need to cook two.
 
Why is cooking for a contest different then cooking for family and friends? Isn't it about good food? Are judges looking for something beside taste and appearance? What's the difference between what Aaron cooks in his restaurant and what he cooks for the comps? I never been to a competition so I don't really understand.

Under KCBS rules, six judges are evaluating the appearance (how delicious does the meat look in the turn-in box), taste, and tenderness of each meat. Entries are scored on a scale of 2 (inedible) to 9 (excellent). A score of 1 is only given at the direction of the contest representative as a penalty for a rules violation, e.g. wrong meat in the box, wrong garnish, not enough meat samples for all judges, etc. Each element--appearance, taste, tenderness--is multiplied by a weighting factor with taste getting the most weight, appearance getting the least weight. The lowest of the six judges scores is dropped, the remaining 5 scores added together, and that's the score for the entry. A perfect score is 180 points.

Competition barbecue is different from restaurant barbecue in several ways. For example, most people say they like "fall off the bone" ribs and many restaurants serve them that way. In competition, ribs like that would get a lower score for tenderness because they're considered overcooked. Judges are looking for a clean bite of meat that comes off the bone easily and is tender in the mouth without being mushy and without all the meat sliding off the bone when the bite is taken.

For chicken, judges are instructed to sample the meat and the skin, if presented with skin on, and we are instructed to eat with our hands, not a knife and fork. So teams want to make it easy for judges to get a bite of tender meat and tender skin--not tough, rubbery, fatty skin. Many teams go to extraordinary lengths to make this happen. Most teams use thighs because they can be cut into consistent size and shape, and they have better moisture and stand up to longer cooking times to achieve tenderness without drying out. Many teams actually remove the skin, scrape the fat off the inside surface, and carefully replace the skin. Others use devices that perforate the skin so fat can escape during cooking and the skin tears easily when a bite is taken. Restaurants would never bother with such steps.

There are so many other ways in which competition barbecue differs from backyard barbecue, but the other big one I should mention is flavor. Each judge usually samples 24 entries (6 chicken, 6 pork ribs, 6 pork shoulder, 6 brisket), so they often take just a single bite from each entry (24 bites x 1 ounce = 1.5 lbs of meat!). That means teams really have to make that single bite "wow" the judges! They use all sorts of cooking techniques, seasonings, rubs, sauces, injections, brining, and all kinds of "secrets" to get that one "excellent" bite to the judges. This is something you don't have to do in the backyard or at a restaurant. In fact, given the intense flavor, spice, sweetness, etc. that many competitors apply to their meat to amp-up that one bite, you'd be hard-pressed to enjoy eating an entire slab of ribs like that. That's why many competitors will tell you that they cook very differently in their own backyard than they do at a competition.

You mentioned "Aaron", I assume you mean the one and only Aaron Franklin of Franklin Barbecue in Austin. I've eaten his food twice, it's excellent restaurant barbecue, and honestly I'd prefer to eat a plate of his brisket any day over a plate of competition brisket. But his brisket is slightly overcooked compared to the KCBS standards for brisket tenderness, and his flavor profile of just salt and pepper would not stand out over other briskets that have been injected and seasoned in complex ways. In fact, if you watched Episode 8: Competition in which Franklin and his father-in-law compete in a KCBS contest in Kansas, he finishes in the middle of the pack because his entries did not measure up to typical competition entries.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but since you said you don't really understand comp barbecue, I'm hoping this helps give you more insight into it. :D
 

 

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