thoughts on marinade (and cook method)?

What do you guys think of the following marinade?

melted in a pot...
1 stick butter
1/2 beer
1/2 c. 7-up
1/4 c. horseradish sauce

I think the horseradish sauce is neat because it's kinda sweet and it adds heat. Can you think of any other ingredients that would go well with this marinade? I plan to soak a small brisket in it. Maybe also inject it a little.

Also, after it marinades, the plan is rub it down (brown sugar, salt, black pepper, garlic, onion, ground mustard and celery seed) then put it up to cook.

After an hour, I would give it a VERY light glaze of honey, and then 1/2 hour before it was done, one more VERY light glaze of honey.

What are your thoughts? Yum or sickening?

Pinny,

I'm thinking the marinade itself will not have a whole lot of flavor; and that is the primary purpose for a marinade. What you may try, is adding some of the ingredients in your rub to the marinade which would add more flavor. My 2 cents; cut out the 7-up and use fresh citrus juice. What you lose in its sweetness you're adding back with the brown sugar. Use a full beer, no light stuff; something with body and flavor like a bock or a stout. Perhaps add some additional herbs like thyme or rosemary. Saute fresh onion and garlic in your butter. You probably don't need a whole stick of butter. Brisket has a lot of fat and doesn't need any help there. Because you're using brown sugar, I personally wouldn't bother with the honey drizzles; too sweet. Just my thoughts.

Paul

I'm entirely with Paul on this. Get some flavor in there with aromatics (garlic, onion, maybe a hint of ginger) and some herbs;lpse the 7-Up. Skip the butter entirely if making a marinade as it will only solidify in the fridge.

Go light on the brown sdugar or forgo it. If you wish, take some marinade out of the container after marinating the meat --maybe 3/4 c) and bring it to a simmer on the stove. When reduced by 1/3 add a little brown sugar; continue simmering, stirring well, till slightly syrupy. Off heat, whisk in 1 t Dijon and 2 t butter. When the brisket is an hour or so away frm done paint this glaze on thinly and quickly. Repeat every 20 min till done.

Just a thought.

so maybe...

1. saute small onion and clove of garlic in 1/2 stick butter
2. add a dark beer (1/2 a beer was neat because you get to drink the rest - oh well
3. add juice from a lemon and a lime
4. add about 1/4 c. horseradish sauce

That sounds fantastic to me!

The spice rub isn't brown sugar heavy so it's not gonna be super sweet so I may still do 1 light coat of honey at the end (it will also give it a nice sheen?), but like you point out, I don't want it to be candy.

As I thought more about it, swap the butter for olive oil. When you marinade the meat, you're going to put that in the fridge. Butter will solidify pretty fast. I'm still pushing the herbs too if you got them .

Paul

Ditto.

Good comments!

I'm not such a fan of mopping; marinading always seems to work better for me. Good point about the butter solidifying. I'm not a big fan of olive oil though, but maybe I'll use regular oil.

I think I'm gonna skip the dijon mustard. Normally I love it, but I think it may be too much in addition to the beer. I think I may even skip the lemon/lime to add flavor, how about some beef stock?

maybe...

saute the onions/garlic in a bit of oil
add a beer and 2 c beef stock
1/3 c horseradish sauce

THANKS!

which herbs? carrot? sweet potato?

Herbs-- as in thyme, rosemary, marjoram, etc. (I'd use thyme and marjoram were it me, a little of each.)

The Dijon suggestion was to emulsify the marinade reduction for use as a glaze, not for flavor. The suggestion was to make a glaze for the finish-- it isn't a mop.

Sauté the onion and garlic in a little butter or oil--about 1 T tops. The marinade will not benefit from a greater quantity. You can replace all that oil or butter with beef stock, yes.

Make sure you allow for sufficient marinating time.

A basic marinade should contain a balace between acid, oil and spices. The oil should be able to emulsify with the acid. and not become a protective coating for the meat. The acid is there to help tenderize the meat and enable the spices to penetrate the subsurface of the meat. The selected spices are to impart the desired flavour. It is similar to the brining process except that the salt moves into the meat cells through osmosis and takes some of the flavours with it. When cooking something that is brined the salt helps retain the moisture in the cells making the meat juicier and more flavoursome, however this is sometimes at the expense of making the food taste saltier. Some cultures prefer this flavour over a sweet flavour. the use of sugar along with salt masks the saltiness to a degree.
In marinades I tend to use less oil unless there is no fat at all in the meat and I often use some type of salt. Fresh herbs that are crushed will imopart some oil which carries most of the flavour.
MostSodas (as you guys call them) contain chemicals/preservatives/artificial sweetners and colourings etc )so I tend to stay away from them. Beeer I use sparingly though it is acidic with some saltiness. Like Kevin, I like to use fresh and natural ingredients where possible.

I would suggest that you use a little EVOO instead of the butter - ditch the 7-up, add 1 crushed tomato and the horse radish the beer and a pinch of salt and a pinch of sugar or about a teaspoon.
Don't use the sugar in the rub and ditch the mustard powder it's not going to add anything.

Glaze 20 minutes, 10 minutes and 5 minutes before finishing. For the glaze use honey and add a little melted butter to the last glaze or you can use a 1 to 1 mixture of palm sugar and water. mellt them together in the microwave for about 10 seconds you may need to add a little more water to thin it out slightly if it gets to thick when it cools.

For a spectacular sauce for dipping for seafood mix equal parts of Minced Horseradish and Tomato Ketchup (must be good quality not watered down). This is the basis of the idea for the marinade.

Regards

I'm not sold that marinading with horseradish is the best way to incorporate that particular flavor into you beef. personally, I try to figure out how the particular flavor will interact with my meat before I decide how I want to add it to a recipe. I'm just guessing, but I don't think much flavor will transfer during the marinade, and additionally I'm not sure that it will stand up to the long cook (similar to mustard). I don't want you to be disappointed (as I have on many occasions) when you get excited about a flavor addition that gets totally lost in the final product. I would suggest making the beef and serving it with a horseradish mayo as the sauce.

Like I said, I'm just guessing about horseradish since I have never used it during cooking. I'd love to hear a first hand report of its effects. If you're determined to give it a try, be sure to let us know how it all comes out. good luck.

Not to hijack this thread, but I think horseradish can be used in higher temp/longer cook environments and still retain its flavor. Mustard powder/seeds require water to release an enzyme that breaks down sulphur compounds resulting in the heat. Horseradish is ready to use fresh from the root and its properties are different from mustard's. There are quite a few recipes using horseradish in longer cook environment such as roasting or baking. Like J, I too would like to get feed back from Pinny on your marinade.

Paul

Brisket went on at 3am, gonna check it at noon. Will definitely get back to you guys.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Horseradish is ready to use fresh from the root and its properties are different from mustard's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its too bad flavor chemistry isnt more popular. I'd love to know more about how flavors are related and how the react with other flavors and ingredients (i.e. oils, acids...). I usually have to guess like lumping horseradish compounds with ones found in mustard, which usually results in a lot of trial and error.

If this works, I can see myself doing something like a wasabi brisket. wasabi powder which is typically available at asian markets is basically powdered horseradish (with mustard and color added). I'm thinking it might be a nice addition to a rub, and opposed to marinade, possibly a better way to add a horseradish flavor to beef.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'd love to know more about how flavors are related and how the react with other flavors and ingredients (i.e. oils, acids...). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you. I think the answer is 'practice, practice, practice'. With experience certain combinations will become 2nd nature as well which ones to avoid. Back to the horseradish. It does produce an oil that is similar to mustard oil, as I believe the the 2 plants are related. To be more accurate, I think horseradish will lose its potency when cooked to some degree, but not like mustard. It's the old thing; paste your butts with mustard because it's good glue and you can't taste it. If you created a horseradish paste; I'm thinking you could pick up some of that flavor. What we need is Kevin K's input.

Paul

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you created a horseradish paste; I'm thinking you could pick up some of that flavor. What we need is Kevin K's input. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to try to avoid wet pastes when smoking. I think they get in the way of smoke ring and bark formation (and as one who likes to foil briskets I have to do anything I can to keep the bark from being soggy). That's why I thought to use wasabi powder, horseradish flavor without the water. However, sticking with my rule to apply each ingredient in a way to maximize flavor, I won't rule out a paste horseradish if it best fits the flavor.

Pastes shouldn't interfere with smokering formation. Avoid or minimize fats and keep the on the dry, pasty side, like peanut butter. You can remove your brisket from the foil a bit before it hits tender and return to the grate to dry the bark.

Horeseradish is in the mustard family. Fresh, it has virtually no pungency till ground or grated, wherby the cell walls get crushed and enzymatic reactions begin. Pungency is stabilized by the use of acids, usually vinegar, but is not heat resistant.

The final marinade was: sauted onions and garlic clove, added a beer, added 2 cups beef stock, added 1/3 c horseradish sauce. Then rubbed it down with 2 tsp brown sugar, 1 tsp kosher salt 2/3 tsp coarse black pepper, 1 tsp garlic powder, 1 tsp onion powder, and 1/2 tsp celery seed. I wound up not glazing it.

It was absolutely amazing (according to the 9 people served, and even according to me), but I'm not sure if any particular flavors stood out. I don't think the horseradish came through at all which really suprised me considering how strong it is. I wonder if it would have been just as good sprinkling some salt,pepper,garlic on it and calling it a day. It's hard to get anything but incredible brisket if you cook it long enough.

Hey Pinny, glad to read your brisket was a success. As to the horseradish; a couple of observations. 1st, it was only 1/3 C of H sauce. The sauce is more mild than pure grated root. 2nd, it was in a marinade of which most is tossed when you put the meat on. Also the sweetness from the brown sugar and sauted onions has a tendency to counter the heat of the horseradish. How long did you marinate the meat, that'll make a difference too?

Paul

It marinated in the fridge a little over 12 hours. The meat was slightly frozen when it went into the marinade, which also could have made a difference.