High Heat Brisket - Yes I've Read the Previous Threads


 
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Andy25

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I read from you guys that I should use a low quality brisket for high heat cooking. This doens't make sense to me as a lower quality brisket would have more connective tissue and therefore benefit from a much longer cook.

Regardless, I have tried three briskets using the low and slow method. I bought all of them from Heartland Meats (www.heartlandmeats.com) at farmer's markets. Meat from this place has been absolutely fantastic. Always tender and juicy. Their meat comes form animals that are 1/2 Piedmontese, partially grass fed, and very lazy (tender!). The briskets were 6, 9 and 12lbs. All three were whole briskets and turned out terrible. The larger two were brined in 4 parts water, 1 part red wine vinegar, salt, and sugar for 3 days prior to getting dried off, coated with oil and my seasoning rub.

I am thinking the lack of connective tissue in meat from Heartland Meats may make it a poor choice for slow cooking. The other cuts I used from them were skirt, flank, hanger, and sirloin cap. All were grilled, all turned out amazingly tender and juicy even though the meat is very lean.

I have one more 12lb brisket left from Heartland Meats. I am thinking I should cook this using high heat (maybe even make a pastrami?) because there just may not be enough connective tissue to make it respond well to slow cooking. Is my logic reasonable? I do not want to waste my time or money on another ruined brisket. Your help is greatly appreciated.

-Andy
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I read from you guys that I should use a low quality brisket for high heat cooking. This doens't make sense to me as a lower quality brisket would have more connective tissue and therefore benefit from a much longer cook. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lower quality brisket does not mean more connective tissue at all.

If your briskets are lean then a high heat approach would be preferable, imo.

I high heat all briskets except Prime and Wagyu.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The larger two were brined in 4 parts water, 1 part red wine vinegar, salt, and sugar for 3 days prior to getting dried off, coated with oil and my seasoning rub. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, and skip the brine. If you want to marinate, fine, but go with something less acidic. This is part of the problem.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The larger two were brined in 4 parts water, 1 part red wine vinegar, salt, and sugar for 3 days prior to getting dried off, coated with oil and my seasoning rub. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, and skip the brine. If you want to marinate, fine, but go with something less acidic. This is part of the problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Really? I though the acid improves tenderness.
 
Not at all. Acid denatures protein; it 'cooks' the meat. Acids are good for flavoring marinades but in most cases one should not make the pH very low for this reason.
 
This opens up a whole new topic. I have always used acid in marinades for grilled meats. Typically the juice of one small lime in maybe 1/2 cup of dark beer with spices has worked great for marinating hanger and skirt steaks. These turn out fantastic unless I use too much lime. I know I have used too much lime when I can taste it in the cooked steak. I assumed when a smaller amount of acid was used, all of it is able to react with the meat.

I have another recipe I came up with where 4/15 of the marinade by volume is balsamic vinegar. I marinate a tri tip roast in this over night then slow roast in the oven (yeah I know, the oven is for the weak, I'll try it smoked when I get another tri tip).

I have marinated tender cuts like filet with acid and yielded only so-so results. Tough cuts like tri tip, flank, hanger, and skirt have all turned out great with the use of acid, so I am surprised as to my lack of success with brisket, a tough cut. Maybe brisket is another animal that defies the trend?
 
Not exactly, but you are correct that different cuts can be affected differently. The amount of time one can effectively marinate using an acidic marinade depends on the type of cut (especially its fat content and how tightly grained it is) and how acidic the marinade is.

Proteins denature, i.e., they 'unwind', when exposed to acidic marinades. Very quickly, they bond with other unwound proteins and form sort of a mesh (the same thing happens during cooking, when proteins are exposed to heat). At the outset water molecules are trapped in this mesh and the meat can remain juicy, but after a short time (especially in highly acidic marinades) the mesh tightens and water molecules are squeezed out; the meat actually gets tougher. (This is the process used to make ceviche: Fresh seafood, often white fish and/or scallops are marinated in in a highly acidic marinade, usually based on lime juice, and the seafood 'cooks' in the acidic environment. It never gets heated.)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I high heat all briskets except Prime and Wagyu. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could make some guesses, but I liked to hear your logic.

Is it possible to identify a prime brisket after its been roasted? I recently ate at a bbq joint and I was really impressed with the moisture and tenderness of their brisket. The muscle fiber bundles seemed loosely packed as if fat that had surrounded them had been rendered out. I've only cooked choice packers and this was nothing like anything I've cooked. my guess was that they started with a very well marbled piece of meat.
 
It is as you undoubtedly expect: the connective tissue and soft fat deposits are copious in both, so lower temps are preferable.

Yes, you can often tell, for the reason you note.
 
Thanks Kevin. You seem to be part scientist part chef. Is your real name Alton? As for my pastrami brisket idea, recipes are calling for three days to three weeks of brining. The brines typically consist of water, salt, peppercorns, cloves of garlic, coriander, and whole cloves. Do you think three days would be sufficient. Pastrami on superbowl Sunday would be great.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted January 28, 2009 08:28 PM Hide Post
Thanks Kevin. You seem to be part scientist part chef. Is your real name Alton? As for my pastrami brisket idea, recipes are calling for three days to three weeks of brining. The brines typically consist of water, salt, peppercorns, cloves of garlic, coriander, and whole cloves. Do you think three days would be sufficient. Pastrami on superbowl Sunday would be great. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ouch! Alton Brown wasn't the first to apply science to the kitchen (ex. McGee) just the first to really profit from it.

Kevin, one more question: I thought that kobe cows are restricted in their ability to move, wouldn't that reduce the amount of connective tissue?

I was thinking low and slow is preferable so you don't overshoot done, which might be sooner rather than later.

I'd think you could adequately brine a brisket in 72 hours, not sure if you could really pickle it. If you have your heart set on it, I'd suggest making up a standard brine (1 gal h20, 1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar) and going with a nice, flavorful pastrami wet rub.

i've tried this before with some success:

Pastrami rub:
2 kosher salt
2 paprika
1 ½ coriander seeds
1 ½ brown sugar
1 black peppercorn
1 mustard seeds
½ white peppercorns
3 large garlic cloves, minced

Its from this thread:

http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1780069052/m...030090165#6030090165
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do you think three days would be sufficient. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but pastrami typically is cured with curing salt (sodium nitrite) in the mix. Three days can work if the meat is not too thick, and will definitely work if the cure is a brine cure rather than a dry cure, especially if it is injected, as long as the fridge temps are ~38?, give or take 1.5?, but not below 36? where curing slows and then stops.
 
Thanks guys.

J: are the units on your recipe in tablespoons? Is salt even necessary in a rub after brining? I typically left salt out of the rub after I brine.
 
oops, not sure it was a while ago. I've moved exclusively to parts or grams, initially my guess was parts but the 3 cloves of garlic screw that up.

when I used that rub it was on a vac packed "corned beef" which I believe I soaked in plain old water for a couple of days, since I was dry roasting it instead of boiling it. that probably why I rubbed it with a bit of salt.

the injection Kevin mentioned is sound. I don't usually think to inject because I don't do it much as a rule, but I got to get back in the habit when I'm brining.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Not at all. Acid denatures protein; it 'cooks' the meat. Acids are good for flavoring marinades but in most cases one should not make the pH very low for this reason. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kevin,

I beg to differ that acids such as red wine do not tenderize meats.

It has been shown in tests that acid solutions do in fact tenderize meats. Marinating meat in acid solutions such as vinegars and wine work by dissolving collagens and other proteins. The organic and tannic acids in wine also ionize the proteins which increase water retention and ultimately lead to more tender meat.

I agree with you though on not using brines/marinades for brisket.
 
Perhaps 'not at all' was a bit strong. Acids in marinades have their place, obviously for flavor and also an a tenderizing agent. But the line can be quite fine, depending on the meat being marinated. For loosely structured, delicate flesh, say, chicken breast and fish, the line is rather fine. In order to avoid the surface and out portions of the flesh becoming 'cooked', careful attention should be paid to acid quantity. This is less of a problem with more tightly grained (and better structured meats) but, still, it is quite possible to end up with the exterior taking on a rough or coarse texture due to excess exposure to the acids if the acids are potent enough. A way to avoid this, especially with thicker cuts, is to inject or Jaccard. Care should still be taken that the pH isn't too low for the meat being marinated, and one still must watch the timing, but it can be effective.

Mostly, though, imo, marinades are most effective as a flavor booster or addition. Meats can be made tender by proper cooking with a technique appropriate to the meat in question.

(Have enjoyed your blog, btw.)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(Have enjoyed your blog, btw.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I especially enjoyed the "Fireplace BBQ Pit" entry and picture. How cool was that!
 
Very interesting thread. I did not find Morton's Tender Quick yet, so the pastrami idea will have to wait untill then. Tender Quick brings up a new concern: sodium nitrite. Supposedly this curing agent can form carcinogenic compunds when exposed to high heat in meats. According to wikipedia, 550 ppm vitamin C is required to be added to cured meats to prevent formation of carcinogenic nitrosamines. I have vitamin C pills, should I just open these up and dissolve the powder into the curing brine? Would this be effective in preventing the formation of nitrosamines?

By my rough calculations shown below (feel free to criticise, it's been a while since chem) one pill (500mg vitamin C) added to the brine would be plenty.

Ascorbic acid = 176g/mol 500mg/pill x 1 mol ascorbic acid/176g = 2.84 mol ascorbic acid/pill

H20 = 18g/mol 236g/cup H20 x 16cups x 1 mol H20/18g = 209.8 mol H20

550ppm = .00055

2.84/209.8 = .01354 >> .00055
 
Hey Seth did you compete in KC BBQ contest in Libertyville, IL a few months back. Porkrastinators sounds familiar.
 
I read interesting article today from Martin Lersch of Khymos,P.H.D. in organometallic chemistry."Marinades should not contain Acids and Salts for beef,as this will lower the water holding capacity.Add salt later".My two cents.
 
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