Do you usually break even on cost at Comps?

I've been BBQ'ing for about 2 years now, and recently started watching BBQ Pitmasters, which has made me want to try a competition at some point.

I was researching comps today on the KCBS website, and it seems like most of them charge about 200-300 to compete, but they also they you sell your food and reimburse a certain % on the dollar for that.

I'm thinking that if you don't win any prize money, is the money from food sales enough to break even on the event?

I'd like to try it sometime but I'm not in a financial position to take a $200-300 loss.

Bryan - not all comps let you vend, and if you do want to vend, you have to be inspected by the health dept., and have the proper permits in most states.

When it comes to comps, I don't usually have time to consider vending, as I am focused on getting things cooked & turned in on time. Also, you have to consider quantity of what to cook and make sure that you have the cooker capacity to handle that much food.

You also have to factor in the cost of meat, charcoal/wood, seasonings, marinades, sauces, injections, food to eat while you are there, drinks, etc. There are so many expenses that go into competing that it is difficult to justify for a lot of people. Still, we compete because we love it and believe that our stuff is at least as good as or better than what we have tasted, so we spend the $$$ and cook our best because we can.

Do lots of research, ask many questions both here and directly from those who have competed, and consider taking a competition class. That may be the best investment you could make in learning to compete, if for no other reason than to see first hand what is involved in a competition. You could also tag along with a comp team for a few hours, a day or a weekend just to see how a comp is done and decide if you want to pursue competition cooking.

This book is a good reference for anybody who wants to compete. It does not list specific costs of competition, but is a great reference for how to set up a competition team and gives a good idea about what is involved in the comp process.

Starting the Fire - Hensler

Jim,

thanks for your reply. I just may buy that book and give it a read.

Based on my general observation, it seems that it would cost $500 or so to do most comps when you factor in gas and all that.

It doesn't seem like the payouts are as high as they should be for that cost. Most of the people on bbq pitmasters take $2,000 or so home per contest I think.

Might be something I end up doing on occassion but I'm not in a place in life where I have the diposable income to risk losing hundreds multiple times. Seems like a sport/hobby you need to be pretty well off financially to take part in.

From my observations it's really difficult to both vend and compete successfully. I think plenty of teams do either one or the other, but many of the teams taking home the serious hardware and prize money are compete-only, no-vend teams. I usually break about even on vending without taking any prize money but this is after several years of accumulating the gear that we find useful or necessary.

Several teams in the competitions that I frequent have commercial-level foodservice equipment. For example, one team rents two propane commercial deep fryers and sells fresh potato chips to the crowd for $4 per serving of approximately one half potato. You can imagine the profit margins on that are wide.

At least in the competitions we do, there's not really a minimum level of food you need to be prepared to sell so you can enter at your own speed, so to speak. If you sell out, then good for you and you learn something for next year.

It's my experience that it's really easy to sell food at these things. People come prepared to eat and to spend money, so if your food is good (or good-looking) you will sell it. And word gets around if you're serving something delicious. Some teams do great selling what is essentially competition overflow i.e. pork, ribs, chicken etc. Other food items also sell great. Our neighbors last year made a killing selling root beer floats on a hot day.

The contest organizers report that the average tickets sold per vending team is about $4000, which after the organizers take their cut is about $3600 in revenue average. This is of course bolstered by the high volume teams that do upwards of $20,000 in sales over the weekend. They of course have 10 or even 20 people on their team, and large scale foodservice equipment to move that kind of volume. A good year for the 3 of us would be about $1000 in sales, using nothing more than WSMs, food warmers and turkey fryer burners.

With respect to the health inspections, in Colorado it's really a formality and the paperwork says as much - they waive most of the health requirements so long as you can articulate a hot- and cold-holding plan and demonstrate that you have some grasp of food safety concepts.

I'd say if you have the manpower to sell food while one or two people focus on the competition, then dive in, as it's pretty easy to break even or at least limit your team's net costs to only $100 or $200 at the most.

Also, for many competitions the vending hours don't really overlap too heavily with the serious competition hours. You can do much of your competition work after vending closes on friday night, for example, and then there's only 2 hours on saturday morning where vending is open before turn-ins begin.

I should say that the above is related to a competition that draws about 35000 visitors per day so smaller competitions will obviously have different numbers.

Some events charge an extra fee to vend on top of the percentage they keep. Location is also important, the one time we tried vending we were so far from the gate that we didn't sell all of our food and the money we made was not worth the effort that went in to it.
On the other hand, not only is competition bbq something my wife and I can do together but we have made many good friends who we enjoy getting to see and visit with. Yes it is an expensive hobby, but it is a lot of fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes it is an expensive hobby, but it is a lot of fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

we do 3-4 local comps a year with a 3-4 man team. We don't spend much on equipment other than the essentials. I'm still using the same three 18" wsm's we started with 5 years ago. I'd say, to a man, we might spend $200 on a given weekend, which considering we eat and drink well, isn't much more than going camping or throwing a party. It can be done at reasonable expense.

With that said, I see many of the teams I started competing with, upgrade their trailers and smokers to bigger and more expensive stuff. I can only wonder how much they have invested in the hobby.

Vending at a comp is a very risky prospect. I've seen vendors be slammed all weekend long and sell everything they brought and wish they had brought more. Then I've seen vendors get stuck with a LOT of product they couldn't move because it rained, they got a bad location, the promoter didn't promote, etc.

Trust me, if an event has been around for awhile, then they have their pet vendors that will get the choice locations. A first timer coming to an established event will more than likely get stuck out in the west field somewhere.

Trying to compete while vending is a total juggling act. Even more so for a first timer. Unless you have people to run the vending side all by itself, you'll get distracted at all the wrong times and your competition product will suffer.

I would pick one or the other to start off with. Both are full time jobs on their own. Put them together and it can be daunting.

Trying to break even by competing is extremely difficult (Just ask Myron). Most teams that look to break even or turn a profit use the competition as advertising for some other aspect such as selling cookers, sauces, rubs, injections, smoke wood, etc.

Russ

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Trust me, if an event has been around for awhile, then they have their pet vendors that will get the choice locations. A first timer coming to an established event will more than likely get stuck out in the west field somewhere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, no kidding

I'll 2nd what Russ said. Just get it in your head that you'll never break even at contests regardless of how well you do all things considered & even those that win consistantly like Myron will tell you that & just have fun doing it instead treating it like an expensive hobby.

If you want to vend, compete for some time to get you name out there & maybe get some trophies under your belt that way when/if you get to vending you'll at least have a reputation or something that will draw people to buy your bbq plus have more people willing to help you out on the vending side while you focus on the contest side.

I'm not trying to dash hopes but if you try to do both as a newbie, you won't be successful at either & lose money in both sides.

I was talking to a KCBS rep and he siad they had broke it down and the average cost to do a competition within 150miles was around 700 bucks. thats when you factore in gas, entry, supplies, meat ect. Thats not including the fact that your always buying new stuff just to add to the team.

If you go into a comp and expect to win money to offset costs, your going to be SOL. if you do get lucky and win 100 bucks or something, treat your team to a good time.

Thanks for all the replies. Maybe If end up rich in 15-20 years, or win the lotto, I'll start competing. Until then, probably not

I have to wonder how much some of the BBQ Pitmasters have really won from competing. On the show, Myron's winning are listed at like 700,000 I think; however, I'd have to think he probably has spent at least half that with the costs of competing.

couple of thoughts:
- no one has mentioned the risk of getting sued. I'm not a lawyer but I'd think all it takes is one person getting really sick on your food, their food or someone elses for a potential lawsuit. If you're not vending out of a corporation, this puts your personal assets at risk. I've learned in my business life, anyone can sue you for anything, right or wrong.

- I do wonder if one could setup a corporation to compete in events. This would allow one to deduct an awful lot of stuff including smoker, meat, tables, gas, etc. Anyone do this?

If a team is strictly competing and not selling to the general public, then the risk of liability is very greatly diminished. Judges by definition understand and agree that they are eating food that isn't necessariy cooked per state/federal regulations. The vast majority of teams are very careful and follow proper food handling procedures (gloves, sanitation, temperatures, etc.) but are not actually licensed for it.

I've never found sufficient reasoning for setting up a business license to compete.

Russ

Bryan,

Quick answer, no, we do not break even. Long answer….

The average cost for us to compete within 2 hours or less is about $700. This includes entry fee, meat, gas, food and beer. By having a couple other people cook with you, it is much easier to absorb those cost when split between you.

We tried competing and vending at 2 events last year. We have 2 main people who do the cooking, with 3-7 people that will come throughout the 2 day events and help us out. Even with that many people, competing and vending to the point of trying to turn a profit is extremely hard. At our first event last we lost a couple hundred dollars, but we also had a lot of equipment to buy since we were vending for the first time. The next event we broke even. I can tell you neither event was worth the amount of work we put into it.

Our next 2 events last year we competed only, and had a much better time. At our first event we made revenue from our people’s choice sales (that event pays you per sample to sell people’s choice) and we won people’s choice, so we broke even for the event. At the next event it was a first year event and very close to us, so it was cheap and we were only out about $400 overall.

This year we have separated, for the most part, when we are going to vend and when we are going to compete. Our turn ins definitely suffered when we were vending as well. We did okay at our first even this year that was vending only, but nothing that you could make a living off of.

You have to look at so many variables for an event for it to be worth it to vend. What is the vending fee, flat or a percentage of sales? I have 2 local events that I will not do because they take 20% of your revenue, on top of a $100 entry fee. We prefer to vend at events that have a flat fee that we take into consideration from the start. How many people usually attend the event? Obviously established events do better since they have been doing it for years. How many other teams will be vending? Is there a people’s choice event (Always the cheapest way for people to try different BBQ)? What are the health department regulations?

In Georgia most events get by the health department because they meet a certain set of rules. 1. Sponsored by a political division of the state (county or city) or 501c (this is why most events benefit a charity), 2. Last 120 hours or less, AND 3. Is authorized to be conducted by the city or county where located. When the event meets that criteria food still has to be cooked to a proper temp, and sanitary processes followed, but you do not have to have a permit.

In Georgia there is also temp food establishment permit for events that last 14 days or less, but they are required to meet a lessened set of the normal health department regulations. There are BBQ events that do not meet the above rules and therefore you must get a permit for a temp food establishment from the local county. To us, that is not worth the effort.

As far as risk, while it is always there, most people at these events eat from multiple vendors so if you are properly handling and cooking your food, I think someone would have a hard time coming back at you. Now if you are touching food with your bare hands for service, serving questionable looking (even if it is done) food, and not handling properly, I am sure someone could easily remember that and come after you.

As for setting up a corporation, in Georgia to get a food related business license (there are a couple exceptions) you must pass a county health examination, which requires you to have or have access to a commercial kitchen. Your kitchen at home can not be a commercial kitchen.

If I were you I would try your hand at a couple backyard events to see if it is for you. The entry fee is usually less (but so is the prize money and number of payouts) and sometimes you don’t cook all 4 meats, which would also bring down your cost. It’s a lot of work and very little sleep, but you may get hooked and want to form a team and go for the bigger prizes.

We did about 12 contests last year. Most were GBA (GA BBQ Assoc), 3 KCBS, 1 FBA.

We won the Pork category for the year in GBA, got called at every contest except 1, had 2 wins in pork, all but 1 top 5, several top 3's (finals) in ribs and loin.

In KCBS, We had 1 win in pork, a 6th (out of 66-Dillard), 5th (Sam's), 2nd (Canton). A few chicken and rib calls.

We didn't even come close to breaking even. Most people think the GBA is "triple A" or JV...they are clueless. It cost nearly the same to enter, if you properly prepare for finals, you are cooking +$350 in meat, +$150 in rubs, injections, sauces, pans, foil, etc. That is +$700 per contest and most of those contests have less than a $4,000 purse.

This year we have cooked 1 GBA (chicken- 5th, $50) and 2 KCBS contests-

A. Cornelia - 1st Pork ($350), 2nd Ribs ($225)
B. Rome - 8th Chicken, 9th Pork, 1st Brisket ($500)

It costs us about $675 to do a KCBS contest not including gas or non-consumable items (EZ-UP, smokers, etc.)


Bottom line...you can see that you can get called a lot, get some checks and unless you are like us (no 5th wheel, no $55k truck) and win Grand every week, you aren't making money UNLESS you have sponsors that take care of that $675 + Fuel every contest.

That is the only way you make money.

In general, our expenses are:

$110 Brisket
$25 Chicken
$32 Butts (2)
$23 Ribs (2 slabs)
$250 entry fee
The rest is rubs, sauce, consumables

Oh yeah, we don't vend and we won't do People's Choice unless it is blind judging and the organizers handle it.

We won People's Choice at Dillard last year and that was $300. Great pay for that.

on a somewhat related tangent, does anyone think that the prize money at most contests is a little out of whack? It's well documented, here and other places, that teams will spend around $700 to enter a contest and compete, yet the chances that you break even or come out ahead are maybe 2-3 teams out of 50.

I get that most contests are fundraising events, but it seems like when you factor in a teams total expenses, the bulk of the costs in a contest are shouldered by the teams.

I think about it every time I work my butt off for a call in the top 5 and walk back to my team with a trophy and a check for $100 or less.

I guess I need to pay better attention to the payout structure at the contests I enter so I can have a better informed opinion.

Are you suggesting that it be mandatory for a contest to have a huge purse and pay out through 4-5 spots to ensure the competitors at least "break even"???

I sure hope not.


Yes, you are correct. If you are concerned about the contest being a money-maker or covering your expenses, you should do your due diligence regarding the payouts and your costs.


For me and the rest of my team, this is a hobby. We like to go out there and cook the best we can. We don't go to a contest expecting a check. I don't want every team to get a ribbon and a plaque for participation.

The $110 for brisket...is that 1 brisket? What kind of brisket is used at comps (in general?)
Thanks,
Tom