Looking for feedback on Rub + Sauce for Pork Butt

Hello, I have lurked here for quite some time and may have had a post or two before the change over to groupee, I had some issues getting Groupee to let me in, but it appears they are all resolved.


Anyway....


I have always stuck with the "Renowned Mr. Brown" from the cooking topics section when I make pork butt, sometimes spicing it up with a blend of dried chiles. This time I decided I wanted to try something different.


Here is what I came up with, The notes in parenthesis are how I adjusted the recipe when I actually made it.

Influences:
•Dr. Pepper Rub: http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/eve/fo...0069052/m/5550069905
•4 Pepper Rub: http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/eve/fo...0069052/m/1880009793
•AB’s Chile Powder: http://www.foodnetwork.com/rec...er-recipe/index.html

Recipe:
1/2 Cup Splenda
1/2 Cup Ground Dried Peppers stemmed, seeded and sliced
•6-8 Ancho Peppers
•3 Guajillo Peppers
•2 Chipotle Peppers
•2 Habanero Peppers
1/4 Cup Black Pepper (a little less)
1/4 Cup Granulated Garlic
1/4 Cup Granulated Onion (not yet, ran out)
1/4 Cup Ground Dried Porcini Mushrooms (Did not measure, just used 1 package from Schnucks Grocery Store)
3 tbsp Whole Fennel
3 tbsp Whole Cumin (did not have whole, used 1 tbsp ground)
2 tbsp Whole Celery Seed
1 tbsp Whole Coriander (did not have whole, used 1/2 tbsp ground)

I followed the suggestion from AB’s chili powder recipe and put the sliced dried peppers + fennel in a pan and roasted for a few minutes. This step was a BAD idea, everyone in the house was hacking and coughing, including my 7 month old daughter. My wife was NOT pleased

So this is where I sit now. Rub made, waiting on granulated garlic to finish. I plan on doing the cook Thursday to bring in for a pot luck at work Friday.


Is there anything I put in that I shouldn't have or anything I should add before using the finished product (besides the onion...)?


Here is what I am planning for the BBQ sauce:


BBQ Sauce:

Influences:
•Bourbon Street Buffalo Wings: http://www.foodnetwork.com/rec...gs-recipe/index.html

1 Stick Butter
1 Cup Chopped Onion
1/2 Cup Chopped Shallot
1/4 Cup Chopped Garlic
1/2 Cup Bourbon
2 6 oz Cans Tomato Paste
1/4 Cup Vinegar
1/4 Cup Sriracha Sauce
1/2 Cup Honey
1/2 Cup BBQ Rub (I will use the one above)

In a large nonstick sauté pan, melt butter and use to sweat onion, shallot and garlic. Once the onions become translucent, transfer to a medium sauce pan and add all other ingredients. Simmer until desired consistency, if too thick add splenda sweetened diet cola to thin out (Diet Rite, Jones Sugar Free Cola, etc)


Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Oh and in case the splenda and diet cola didn't jump out at you, I am trying to keep it as low carb as possible.


The Bourbon street buffalo wing sauce is a FANTASTIC sauce overall, it just never sat right to me that it calls for ketchup, bbq sauce and wing sauce when there can be so much variance in which ones you use. So I tried to re-engineer it to raw ingredients and keep it as low carb as possible.


Unfortunately there is no real good substitute for honey in the recipe, so that plus the tomato paste are the only carbs in the entire process.

Garrett, just one thought. Tie it all together, add a tablespoon of your rub or more to taste.

It looks like he is planning that, yes, Garrett? If so, I'd start with Steve's suggestion of 1 or 2 Tbls, stir, heat a few mn then taste and scale up as you wish (the flavors will bloom more with time so keep that in mind; some will decrease if overcooked so watch that too!).

I like celery seed but find the current amount out of proportion in terms of the profile with the fennel, cumin and coriander, and in terms of waste. See what you think as is; sometime try 1 tsp or so, if any.

Add the granulated onion.


I can't say I am a fan of tomato paste, using it virtually never, for anything. I get the no-ketchup angle; I think canned diced tomatoes (in juice, not purée) a better choice. Maybe try it sometime. Just me, perhaps--and just a thought.

Consider letting the onions get lightly to moderately browned in spots. Use moderate heat (this will take a bit of time) if you are using whole butter; use med-high if using clarified; med-high if using a whole butter and oil, 50-50, combo. Better flavor, imo. I don't see the need for a nonstick and would not use one here, especially if browning. Too much time. After the onions are lightly browned add the shallot, stir, and cook about 1-1.5 min. (Don't allow to color.) Add the garlic and cook, stirring constantly, till just fragrant, about 45-60 secs or so, no more.

I'd flame the bourbon. (Amount might be adjusted down if using fresh or canned diced tomatoes. Paste is a hard thing to get through, flavor-wise; not so for diced.)

I'd thin, if necessary, with water. Keep the flavor dynamics the same rather than add yet another profile to this one at the last minute. Adjust salt if necessary if thinning.

Your wife is not wrong, AB's recipe (or whoomever its author) is.

Place all of the chiles and the cumin into a medium nonstick saute pan or cast iron skillet over medium-high heat. Cook, moving the pan around constantly, until you begin to smell the cumin toasting, approximately 4 to 5 minutes. Set aside and cool completely.

No. Something like this flow is more apt: Heat a large, dry sauté pan (not nonstick) over med-high heat till hot. (If using cast iron, heat several more minutes as they usuallytake longer to heat.)

Add the peppers in one layer then, using tongs or a spatula, flip the peppers after several seconds, lightly and briefly pressing the peppers to the pan's surface just before flipping.

Whole peppers, or those split and seeded but still in large halves or pieces, might take a minute or two, depndng on original dryness, variety, thickness, etc. Chopped or sliced peppers might go 10-30 seconds, depending on the same variables.

The point of toasting the peppers is, first, for flavor. There should be a chile-rich, toasted aroma, and this doesn't take long if the pan is pre-heated. They should not be taken to the bone dry stage--even if the second point, grinding the peppers--is desired. Peppers burn quickly once bone dry (and if they are bone dry before hitting the pan then toasting is very brief).

The best peppers to pan-toast or -dry are those that are dry but still pliable. Taken to the just aromatic stage then quickly dumped onto a cooler surface (a large plate; a countertop) is suficient for flavor and, if allowed to cool and dry further for a bit thereafter, sufficient for drying. They will dry more as they cool and sit exposed. Good. Toasting/drying, as the AB recipe instructs, is usually a recipe for disaster, as you discovered.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the feedback, the sauce is not yet made so I will go with the diced tomatoes over the paste. How much do you think I should use?

Steve, I do plan on adding some of the rub to the sauce, but I will take your suggestion to start with only a TBSP or two, rather than the 1/2 cup I was planning. I can always add more if I need to, but it gets tricky when you try to cut back.

The idea of thinning the sauce with diet cola came from one of the recipes for bbq sauce I looked at when trying to cut the Wing Sauce + Ketchup + BBQ stuff down into their individual ingredients before consolidating into a single recipe.


But I can definitely understand the need to avoid too much going on at once. I will use water to thin if needed.


I am assuming that I should add the bourbon right after the onions/shallots/garlic to get the proper evaporation/burn. Right?


I love to cook and watch plenty of Food Network but this is my first foray into developing some of my own recipes.


It wouldn't have been possible without this site and I am glad that the two of you (Steve and Kevin) chimed in with opinions. A lot of the info I used to come up with this came from some of the other posts you two have on here (No salt in the rub... a first for me!).

Originally posted by Garrett Stevens:
Thanks for the feedback, the sauce is not yet made so I will go with the diced tomatoes over the paste. How much do you think I should use?

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I'd go with 3 standard cans total, maybe 4, starting with toms only (save the juice), and maybe 10-15 min later making a decision on the saved juices.

My view here: I dislike tomato paste and the vast majority of commercial Q sauces for virtually the same reason: the overcooked taste most, imo, have. Paste is already cooked to death and further cooking (Q sauce, pasta sauce) makes it worse. The process many Q sauce makers use (and the already cooked ingredients used in the mix before cooking/processing/bottling) leads to very similar overcooked flavors, again, imo. (This is a key reason why I don't sauce meats in the cooker or on the grill.) You -- and others -- might have another view and of course that's fine, and fine with me. Just want to explain where I am coming from so you can see why I am writing as I am.

Anyway, if you choose to go the route I suggest, or do something similar, you'll need more time as the thinner liquid of the sauce without the paste will take more time to reduce. You can finesse this if you wish (I often do) by puréeing the sauce when some cooking has occurred, then returning to the pot for further cooking, adjustments, etc. The flavor of the base will be fresher but if you'd prefer it to veer more towards 'cooked', perfectly fine (I often do here too); simply let it simmer gently a bit till it gets near there; adjust seasonings and thickness if necessary; pull it off and allow to cool. (You can also shorten thickening time by increasing the substance -- solids, like the onions; maybe fresh or dried fruit or chilies -- upfront.)

Note: Honey's flavor dissipates dramatcally at temps higher than a simmer so you end up using muh more to get a little flavor. Add honey things get going and you've reduced the heat, for best results. Add some and taste as you go.

Steve, I do plan on adding some of the rub to the sauce, but I will take your suggestion to start with only a TBSP or two, rather than the 1/2 cup I was planning. I can always add more if I need to, but it gets tricky when you try to cut back.

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Absolutely.

The idea of thinning the sauce with diet cola came from one of the recipes for bbq sauce I looked at ...


But I can definitely understand the need to avoid too much going on at once. I will use water to thin if needed.

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The idea is not a bad one. My effort here is just as you state, so that you can more easily see what's 'going on' -- at least now, while the sauce is new to you. In future renditions you'll make adjustments/changes as you see fit.

I am assuming that I should add the bourbon right after the onions/shallots/garlic to get the proper evaporation/burn. Right?

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Yes.

If using a gas stove, add the bourbon all at once and immediately pull the pot/pan toward you, almost off the burner, and tip it away from you some, so that the fumes ignite. Put the pan back on the burner as normal, let the flames subside, stirring, and let the bourbon reduce by, say, 75%, imo. If electric you can ignite with a long match or just not worry about it. It will take a bit longer but I'd still reduce.

I love to cook and watch plenty of Food Network but this is my first foray into developing some of my own recipes.

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I can tell and that's great. Good for you--really!

Keep in mind that TFN is first an entertainment venture. Not to dismiss it, the 'chefs', the chefs, or anything else but, imo, it often veers toward the unworkable/silly, and/or sticks to its 'show mode' too, too long. That's fine. That's what it's about. You might well get something out of it -- good -- but there are other places to go, and nothing beats actual doing. No?

It wouldn't have been possible without this site and I am glad that the two of you (Steve and Kevin) chimed in

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Thank you for your kind words. Haven't been able to be here much in these recent months, and it is likely I'll need topeter out again soon. We'll see. But I miss it when I'm gone.

Ok, the sauce is on the stove simmering, the smoker is chugging along right at 225, the weather is nice, and I have the day off work. What more could you ask for!


As far as the sauce, I did sub 3 cans diced tomatoes drained (I still have the juice in case I need to thin later) for the paste, also I adjusted things a little. The batch I am making looks like this:

1 Stick Unsalted Butter
2 Cups Chopped Onion
3/4 Cup Chopped Shallot
1/2 Cup Chopped Garlic
1 Cup Bourbon
3 Cans Diced Tomatoes (Drained)
1/2 Cup Vinegar
1/2 Cup Sriracha Sauce (in retrospect I would probably skip this)
1 Cup Honey
2-3 TBSP BBQ Rub

With the sauce I slightly browned the onions, then added shallots for about a minute then garlic for about 45 seconds. Added the bourbon and put a candle lighter to it (a gas stove is high on my list. Had one before, electric came with the house). It burned for nearly a minute! After letting the flames subside I added the remaining ingredients then let simmer for about 15 minutes. Then I strained out the solids and put them in the blender for a rough puree. Combined the solids back with the liquid and that is where I am at now.

The taste as it sits now is slightly sweet with a strong build of heat afterwords. Nothing painful but it is not for the faint of heart!


I know what you mean about TFN, I tend to watch mostly Good Eats because I love the science/history behind the food and sometimes Iron Chef just to see the variety of ways things get prepared.


Well, I think I am going to go find something to throw on the smoker for dinner. Maybe some chorizo and jalepeno sausages.

Ok this is going to be a stupid question....


How can I get this to look more like BBQ sauce? As it sits it looks more like spaghetti sauce.

Not a stupid question. I often like the brighter color of this type of sauce, but when I want a deeper color I usually add ground ancho or guajillo, or smoked paprika or some strong coffee--or a combination.

Holy cow is this sauce spicy!


Not in a bad way though. Starts off a little sweet then slowly builds heat until your whole mouth is feeling it.

Next time I will definitely leave out the Sriracha. I think a lot of the heat came from that, also the rub was pretty spicy as well. Ended up using less than 1/4 cup of the rub in the sauce.


Part of the motivation for the sauce was getting away from premade sauces like ketchup and BBQ sauce as a part of a bbq sauce recipe. Then what do I do? Go and put a prepared sauce in the recipe (at least I specified WHICH sauce!).


Thanks again for your help. I will have to warn people at work before they dig in.


Now all I need is for the meat to be finished. Put it on 13.5 hours ago. Only up to 170 so far. Should have left well enough along and not opened it at all. I added jalapeno cheddar sausage, a small pork loan roast and a chorizo fattie for snacks/dinner. That resulted in a few more lid openings than I would normally like.


I hope it is done before midnight!

I trust all turned out fine.

When time seems to be squeezed you can always bump up the cooktemp. You can do this from the beginning or you can do it later in the cook. Really need to shorten the time to finish? You can foil the meat.

Sauces often change with time after being made; some ingredients mellow, some seem to get more pronounced, flavors blend.

I love sriracha. It is something use more as a solo thing -- but might add it to a sauce. If I do it tends to be at or near the end when it feels like the sauce might 'need' little something -- and that something is likely to include it (alone or with other somethings); then I'll add a bit and see.

In my opinion: Good cooking is instinctual. One certainly learns over time through experience, yes. But if one wants to be a good cook and not simply an assembler of recipe ingredients -- if one wants to cook -- then one needs to listen. If you attach yourself to s specific outcome, i.e., if you approach your endeavor with a 'clear' idea about how something must be in the end, then you'll often fail to hear the voice that might guide you in a different direction, you'll miss feeling the myriad possible outcomes that would be equally as good or better than the one outcome that you've decided ahead of time it must be.

Good cooking is organic: it comes from the heart, not the head. The heart is open to possibilities. Let your head decide your direction, point you toward experiences it wants or needs. Fundamental learning starts there. Let your heart interpret; listen and you'll hear it reveal the possible directions you're free to go.

Gain experience: read, watch, do. Taste, yes, but smell everything.

From what you write it seems you're already on the beginning of this path. Don't think about it too much. Listen, then enjoy the ride.