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Rita Y
11-23-2007, 05:44 PM
For a really good fresh-tasting pizza sauce, use one that is uncooked. Here is my adaptation of the Gemelli Pizza recipe in Maggie Glezer's "Artisan Baking Across America." (http://www.amazon.com/Artisan-Baking-Across-America-Recipes/dp/1579651178/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195871366&sr=8-1) I've been using it for at least 8 or 9 years. I think that Peter Reinhart has a similar recipe in his recent book "American Pie."

Her pizza dough is also excellent and the one I use for grilled or baked pizzas. After a 6-hour proof, it is VERY extensible! Retarding the dough is optional.

PIZZA SAUCE

1 (28-oz) can crushed tomatoes, preferably Progresso or imported
1/2 teaspoon table salt (start with 1/4 tsp and then adjust to taste)
1/4 teaspoon coarsely ground black pepper
3/4 teaspoon fennel seeds, crushed
1 teaspoon dried basil (optional), or triple the given amount for fresh
1 teaspoon dried oregano (optional), or triple the given amount for fresh
1 teaspoon dried marjoram leaves (optional), or triple the given amount for fresh
5 cloves fresh garlic, minced or crushed OR 1 tablespoon granulated garlic powder (sandy, not the fine powder)
2 tablespoons fresh lemon juice or red wine vinegar, or a combination of both (we prefer 100% lemon juice)

1. Stir all the ingredients together, adding the salt gradually, to taste. The basil, oregano, and marjoram are optional. I (Rita) use all three, but in an authentic Napoletana marinara pizza you would use only oregano in the sauce.

2. The flavors of the herbs and garlic will intensify when the pizza is baked, so resist the urge to increase the amount (you can increase the amount of either if not using both, but do not use more than 3 teaspoons total of the dried herbs, or 3 tablespoons total of the fresh herbs).

EDIT: Leftovers are really good over pasta, in Eggplant Parmesan, or where you'd use a marinara sauce (as in Mussels Marinara).
Rita

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GEMELLI PIZZA DOUGH
From "Artisan Baking Across America" by Maggie Glezer

• Makes 4 individual pizzas, to serve 4
• Time: About 6 1/2 hours, with about 20 minutes of active work

The wonderful thing about this professional method of making pizza dough is that it is so flexible. You can make the dough in the morning, let it rise all day, and bake your pizzas in the evening. You can also mix the dough up to 36 hours in advance, shape it into balls, and refrigerate it. The next morning, put the tray of chilled dough on the kitchen counter to proof all day, and it will be ready to bake in the evening.

What makes this method different is that it is cut and rounded into individual balls immediately after kneading. The dough then proofs, essentially skipping fermentation, giving it hours instead of minutes to relax before being shaped. Thus, this dough stretches out gorgeously into thin, even disks, even though it contains no oil.

The keys to making great pizza are to shape the dough exactly when it’s proofed enough and to bake it quickly at a high temperature, so the crust will be browned and well cooked but still flexible—it is not supposed to be crisp. Proofing enough but not too much is the essence of mastery. Well-proofed dough is light, extensible, and bubbly; overproofed dough collapses when it is handled. Ideally you would make your pizza as soon as your dough is well proofed, but if you are trying to time it for a dinner party, that can be hard. Consider that underproofed is better than overproofed.


3 1/3 cups (17.6 oz, 500 g) bread flour (pref. Gold Medal, or King Arthur bread flour) [100.0 %]
1/4 teaspoon instant yeast (a.k.a. “Bread Machine,” “Perfect Rise,” or “RapidRise” yeast) [0.2 %]
2 teaspoons (0.4 oz, 10 g) table salt [2.0 %]
1 1/2 cups (12.0 oz, 330 g) water, lukewarm [66.0 %]

Note: I add 1 teaspoon minced fresh rosemary and 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon minced dried oregano &/or marjoram to the dough just before the end of mixing. You can also add some Parmesan or Romano cheese. -- Rita


by hand: Mix the flour, yeast, and salt together in a large mixing bowl. Add the water and mix until the dough is shaggy and most of the water has been absorbed. Turn the dough out of the bowl and knead, without adding extra flour, until it is just blended but not too smooth. Cover the dough with a bowl and let it rest for 10 to 15 minutes to allow the yeast to fully hydrate. Knead the dough for 5 to 10 minutes, until it is fairly smooth, using a dough scraper if it is difficult to handle.

by stand mixer: Measure the flour, yeast, and salt together in the mixing bowl and stir them together by hand. Using the dough hook, mix on low speed while pouring in the water; continue to mix on low speed just until the dough gathers around the hook, about 3 minutes. Cover the bowl and let the dough rest for about 10 to 15 minutes to allow the yeast to fully hydrate. Mix the dough on medium speed for about 3 minutes, until the dough is fairly but not perfectly smooth.

by food processor: Add the flour, yeast, and salt to the workbowl fitted with the steel blade. Process for a few seconds to mix the dry ingredients. With the machine running, pour in the water through the feed tube and process just until the dough forms a ball, about 30 seconds. Let the dough rest for about 10 to 15 minutes to allow the yeast to fully hydrate. Process the dough until the work-bowl fogs, about 30 seconds. Remove it and hand knead it to cool it and redistribute the heat. Repeat this process 3 or 4 times, until the dough is fairly smooth.
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Rita's food processor method: Add the flour, yeast, and salt to the workbowl fitted with the steel blade. Process for a few seconds to mix the dry ingredients. With the machine running, pour in the water through the feed tube and process just until the dough forms a ball, about 30 seconds. LET THE DOUGH REST for about 10–15 minutes to allow the yeast to fully hydrate.
MEANWHILE, CHOP THE FRESH HERBS or measure out the dry herbs, if using.
PROCESS THE DOUGH until the workbowl fogs and the dough is fairly smooth, about 15 seconds. THEN ADD THE HERBS and process 5 seconds more. Remove dough and hand knead to cool and redistribute the heat. It will not form a gluten window.
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This soft dough should feel sticky at first, and then soft but dry to the touch. Adjust the dough’s consistency with extra water or flour only if it is excessively sticky (add 1 tablespoon flour at a time) or stiff (add 1 tablespoon water at a time).

DIVIDING THE DOUGH
On a lightly floured work surface, cut the dough into 4 equal pieces, each 7 ounces (200 grams). Shape each piece of dough into a tight ball: Roll the dough up like a carpet, turn the roll around, position it seam side up, and roll the cylinder up again. Roll the cylinder perpendicular to itself a third time. Turn the dough so that the seam is on the bottom and round the dough under your palm into a tight ball. Roll each rounded piece in flour and arrange each on a floured tray. Cover the tray tightly with plastic wrap.

FERMENTING THE DOUGH
Let the balls of dough proof at room temperature until they are soft and puffy but still springy, 5 to 6 hours. Or refrigerate the dough, after shaping it, for up to 36 hours. Remove it from the refrigerator and let it finish proofing at room temperature for 7 to 8 hours. [I find that about 5 hours works better for me in normal kitchen temperatures; in cooler kitchens in the winter, 6 hours would be better. For a longer proof, reduce the yeast a little. - RY]

PREHEATING THE OVEN
One hour before baking the pizzas, arrange a rack on the oven’s second-to-top shelf and place a baking stone on it. Clear away all racks above the one being used. Preheat the oven to its highest-possible temperature setting. Hopefully this will be between broil and clean—you are trying for 750°F (400°C), but 550°F (290°C) or even 500°F (250°C) will still work.

SHAPING THE DOUGH
Flour your work surface well and place a fully proofed dough ball on it. Flatten the ball with your hands and press it into a disk. The easiest way I have found to shape the dough is to just pull it out gently between your hands, rotating the disk as each side is pulled. To perfect the shape, place one hand on the center of the dough (to prevent it from getting too thin, which it has a tendency to do) and gently tug around the edges until the dough is about 1/8 inch thick in the center and about 1/4 inch at the very edge. Keep a serving plate next to you and be sure not to stretch the dough larger than the plate’s diameter.

Emanuele’s shaping method, which is slightly different from the one in the recipe: After flattening the dough into a thin disk, press your cupped hands just up to the edge of the dough (this allows the edge to stay thicker). Next, spread your hands apart to stretch the dough. Finally, when fully shaped, the dough should be thin and round, the edge about 1/4-inch thick.

TOPPING AND BAKING THE PIZZA
Place the shaped dough on a sheet of parchment paper or, if you are more confident, directly on a lightly floured peel, which could be any lightweight, rimless baking sheet. Spread about 1/4 cup sauce on the dough and scatter with 2 ounces cheese. Peel the pizza onto the baking stone or slide it, still on the paper, onto the hot stone. Bake until the crust has colored slightly, burning in spots and staying pale in other areas, and the cheese has melted. The baking time should be around 4 minutes if your oven is hot enough, up to 6 if it is cooler. Do not overbake the pizza. To serve, drizzle on a little olive oil and arrange 4 basil leaves decoratively on top. Shape, top, and bake the remaining dough balls one at a time but eat the hot pizza right away.

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Rita’s Notes:
§ This dough makes pizzas with thicker edges that are nice and chewy. The centers are quite thin.
§ For smaller appetites, divide the dough into 6 portions.
§ To shape the dough into tight balls, you can roll the dough in a circular motion on a dry (not floured) countertop under a cupped palm. It just takes a little practice.
§ This is my favorite crust and I use the processor method but also sometimes make it by hand.
§ This crust works well on the grill. Smaller pizzas are easier to handle for the grill.
§ I love this sauce; it has a lovely fresh flavor…..and no cooking! I add about 3/4 teaspoon crushed fennel seeds and 1 to 2 tablespoons fresh lemon juice for brightness.
§ If your oven has a convection option, use it on its highest heat setting.
§ Don’t load the pizzas with a lot of ingredients. Choose 3 toppings, maximum, in addition to the sauce.
§ Fresh mozzarella is great, but part-skim mozzarella will make a good pizza if you’re watching calories and fat.
§ My family likes a crust with a little crunch on the bottom, so I lightly sprinkle yellow grits (white will do) on the parchment before adding the shaped pizza round. To me, it has a better texture than cornmeal.
§ The dough can be retarded (refrigerated, tightly covered) overnight. Give the dough an extra 30 minutes to ferment.
§ Extra dough balls can be rolled in flour, put into a zip-top plastic bag, and frozen for up to a month. Remove from the bag, put into the floured tray, and thaw in the refrigerator overnight. Proceed with the fermentation as above.


EDIT: Added dough recipe and changed thread name to indicate that.
....Decreased the proof time to about 5 hours.
....Gold Medal changed the name (not the formula) for the Harvest King flour to Gold Medal Bread Flour

Bryan S
11-23-2007, 06:26 PM
Rita, That looks like a really nice pizza sauce, Thanks for posting it. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Luke and Bethany
12-04-2007, 04:34 AM
I agree, thanks a bunch!

Chris Notarpole
12-10-2007, 07:15 AM
Rita,
Can you also post her dough recipe? I have been looking for a good pizza dough.

thanks.

Rita Y
12-10-2007, 12:05 PM
Chris, I didn't know where to post the dough recipe so I just added it underneath the Pizza Sauce recipe above and changed the name of the thread to reflect that.

Hope you catch this. I tried to email you privately but your email is not in your profile.

I hope you enjoy it,
Rita

Chris Notarpole
12-11-2007, 05:55 AM
Thanks Rita!

I can't wait to try the dough recipe. As soon as I make it, I will drop you a line and let you know how it went.

Pray for me....me and pizza dough do not get along...ask my family. They have suffered through some pretty bad crusts.

Rita Y
12-11-2007, 10:59 AM
You'll be fine, Chris. Just remember that the dough will be very soft and stretchy after the 5- or 6-hour proof.

You can partially shape it just by holding it up by one edge and slowly turning it. It will stretch by its own weight. After you get it started, drape it over the knuckles of both hands and work them around the edge, stretching your hands wider as you go, to perfect the shape a little. Remember, the dough does not have to be perfectly round; a rustic shape is quite attractive and implies hand made. My first pizzas looked like Australia (my apologies, Phil H!), but they were tasty nevertheless.

Rita

Bryan S
12-11-2007, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Rita Y:
You'll be fine, Chris. Just remember that the dough will be very soft and stretchy after the 5- or 6-hour proof.

You can partially shape it just by holding it up by one edge and slowly turning it. It will stretch by its own weight. After you get it started, drape it over the knuckles of both hands and work them around the edge, stretching your hands wider as you go, to perfect the shape a little.

Rita
Yep, spot on directions as always from Rita. One of these days soon I'm going to put a video together for the pizza newbies on stretching dough. Once you see how to do it, it becomes quite simple. Just remember do not work the dough before stretching. You want the gluten relaxed before working it. Round relaxed dough (use a round container) makes round pizza. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chris Notarpole
12-13-2007, 05:46 AM
Rita and Bryan,
I guess my biggest problem is when all the ingredients are mixed, deciding if the dough is too sticky or else to dry. The whole adding a tsp of flour or water at a time till it is correct is the problem since I have no idea what it should look like in the first place.

I am ashamed to say that I used to work in the Italian restaurant as a short order cook but was never around when the dough was made. I can spin a dough in the air no prob but that is as far as it goes with messing with dough.

I will go with the recipe and let you know how things turn out.

Rita Y
12-13-2007, 06:18 AM
Chris, if you have a scale, weigh the ingredients - those weights are the most accurate. Every time you measure flour by volume you'll get a different weight. If possible, go by grams first. Ounces are almost as good, and volume (cups) is the least desirable measurement for baking.

I go by the gram weights and rarely have to adjust anything in the dough. I prefer doing this dough in the processor, thus avoiding sticky hands. This also keeps you from adding too much flour. With practice you'll learn the feel of the dough quickly. Don't forget, it's only a little flour, so it's no big waste if you have to start over. Make the dough often so you'll retain the "feel" memory better. Jot down some notes to help you remember what works and what doesn't work for you. Ask questions.

Rita

Doug D
12-13-2007, 01:51 PM
I never got as good results with my dough until I started weighing everything-- water, too-- and trying to be as consistent as possible. It's amazing how a variation of just 10 grams-- about 1/3 ounce-- of one ingredient can noticeably affect the handling properties of 800 grams of dough.

Steve Petrone
12-13-2007, 04:09 PM
Too wet can be a pain...I made 10 dough balls today. It was not fun cooking for others with overly limp -wet sticky dough. They did eat it though.

Bryan S
12-13-2007, 06:21 PM
As Rita and Doug already have mentioned a scale is the best way to get consistent results from your pizza dough. I have used a scale to weigh out my flour and water from day one since I have 3 of them from home brewing, wine, and mead making. Salt and yeast just get measured out. If I do use oil and or sugar in the dough, (very rare) they just get measured out also.

12-20-2007, 11:42 AM
Rita,

Your recipe looks great ! I can't wait to try it here in Gwinnett County. If you don't mind here is another pizza recipe from America's Test Kitchen that I do on my Weber Performer. The extra olive oil in the dough helps it from sticking on the grill, however, I still oil up the grates. In fact, we make several batches of the dough and grill them and freeze them for later use. Just put some sauce and cheese on and pop them in the oven.

A step by step guideline for the recipe below is posted at www.americastestkitchen.com (http://www.americastestkitchen.com). Just search for pizza.


Dough
2 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
1 cup water (8 ounces), room temperature
2 cups bread flour (11 ounces), plus more for work surface
1 tablespoon whole wheat flour (optional)
2 teaspoons sugar
1 1/4 teaspoons table salt
1 teaspoon instant yeast

Topping
1 1/2 pounds medium plum tomatoes (5 to 6), cored, seeded, and cut into 1/2-inch dice
3/4 teaspoon table salt
6 ounces fontina cheese , shredded (about 2 cups)
1 1/2 ounces Parmesan cheese , finely grated (about 3/4 cup)
1 recipe Spicy Garlic Oil (see associated recipe)
1/2 cup chopped fresh basil
Coarse salt


. FOR THE CRUST: Combine oil and water in liquid measuring cup. In food processor fitted with plastic dough blade or metal blade, process bread flour, whole wheat flour, sugar, salt, and yeast until combined, about 5 seconds. With machine running, slowly add liquid through feed tube; continue to process until dough forms tacky, elastic ball that clears sides of workbowl, about 1 1/2 minutes. If dough ball does not form, add more flour 1 tablespoon at a time and process until dough ball forms. Spray medium bowl lightly with nonstick cooking spray or rub lightly with oil. Transfer dough to bowl and press down to flatten surface; cover tightly with plastic wrap and set in draft-free spot until doubled in volume, 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

2. When dough has doubled, press down gently to deflate; turn dough out onto work surface and divide into 4 equal-sized pieces. With cupped palm, form each piece into smooth, tight ball. Set dough balls on well-floured work surface. Press dough rounds with hand to flatten; cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.

3. FOR THE TOPPING: Meanwhile, toss tomatoes and table salt in medium bowl; transfer to colander and drain 30 minutes (wipe out and reserve bowl). Shake colander to drain off excess liquid; transfer tomatoes to now-empty bowl and set aside. Combine cheeses in second medium bowl and set aside.

4. Gently stretch dough rounds into disks about 1/2 inch thick and 5 to 6 inches in diameter. Working one piece at a time and keeping the rest covered, roll out each disk to 1/8-inch thickness, 9 to 10 inches in diameter, on well-floured sheet of parchment paper, dusting with additional flour as needed to prevent sticking. (If dough shrinks when rolled out, cover with plastic wrap and let rest until relaxed, 10 to 15 minutes.) Dust surface of rolled dough with flour and set aside. Repeat with remaining dough, stacking sheets of rolled dough on top of each other (with parchment in between) and covering stack with plastic wrap; set aside until grill is ready.

5. TO GRILL: Ignite 6 quarts (1 large chimney) hardwood charcoal or briquettes in chimney starter and burn until fully ignited, 15 to 20 minutes. Empty coals into grill and spread into even layer over three-quarters of grill, leaving one quadrant free of coals. Position cooking grate over coals and heat until grill is medium-hot, about 5 minutes (you can hold your hand 5 inches above grill grate for 4 seconds); scrape grate clean with grill brush.

6. Lightly flour pizza peel; invert 1 dough round onto peel, gently stretching it as needed to retain shape (do not stretch dough too thin; thin spots will burn quickly). Peel off and discard parchment; carefully slide round onto hot side of grill. Immediately repeat with another dough round. Cook until tops are covered with bubbles (pierce larger bubbles with paring knife) and bottoms are grill marked and charred in spots, 1 to 2 minutes; while rounds cook, check undersides and slide to cool area of grill if browning too quickly. Transfer crusts to cutting board browned sides up. Repeat with 2 remaining dough rounds.

7. Brush 2 crusts generously with Spicy Garlic Oil; top each evenly with one-quarter of cheese mixture and one-quarter of tomatoes. Return pizzas to grill and cover grill with lid; cook until bottoms are well browned and cheese is melted, 2 to 4 minutes, checking bottoms frequently to prevent burning. Transfer pizzas to cutting board; repeat with remaining 2 crusts. Sprinkle pizzas with basil and coarse salt to taste; cut into wedges and serve immediately.

Rita Y
12-20-2007, 01:26 PM
P, I'm glad I caught this. My email has been down yesterday and all day today, so I'm not getting the notifications.

If this is Cook's recipe for grilled pizza, I've tried it and it's good. I'm glad you posted it. It's been a while since I tried it but if I recall, it makes a flatter crust than the one I posted. My personal preference is for puffier, chewier edges, typical in a Neapolitan style pizza, where the emphasis is on the crust, and less so on the toppings.

The recipe I use has no oil, and I've never had a problem with it sticking to the grill. I usually stack my shaped dough rounds between lightly floured parchment squares and spray the top side of them with oil just before flipping them onto the well-oiled grill grate. You can add 1 to 3 tablespoons if you wish, and reduce the water about the same amount. I don't usually add oil to my dough unless I'm planning to reheat leftovers, and sometimes not even then.

TO REHEAT PIZZA: The best way I've found to reheat leftovers is to put them into a skillet or onto a griddle that has been preheated over medium-low heat until the crust is crispy. Often I don't even bother preheating.

Tim C
09-07-2009, 06:42 AM
thanks rita. we just made our first pizzas and the sauce was fantastic and very easy to make. we found a 16" screen and my wife had picked up some frozen dough at sams, the same dough they use for their pizzas. it was really good but im looking forward to making the dough as well. we just ordered a scale today. i can see this is something we will definately be making often.

Paul H
09-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Rita, I tried your pizza sauce recipe yesterday. I used ground tomatoes(6+1 brand). I had to make more than I really needed because of the size of the can. Froze some and kept one whole jar in the fridge. Unquestionably, the best pizza sauce I've tasted in a long, long, long time. Used it last night and even the wife enjoyed it. She's thinking about using it in other recipes. Yikes, I've created a monster http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Anyway, thanks for the great recipe.

Rita Y
09-13-2009, 07:49 AM
Tim and Paul, I'm glad you liked the sauce. It's still a favorite of mine.

I don't usually freeze my leftover aauce; I find that it gets a little watery upon thawing. But I do put it into a quart Mason jar and FoodSaver it. It will keep for a month or longer in the refrigerator that way. It is so versatile that it doesn't stay in my fridge very long anyway.

Besides pizza, we like the sauce over a simple pasta side dish. To dress the pasta up for an entree, I sometimes do a quick vegetable saute or slice up some Italian sausage, onion, and peppers (Amy-Lou's chicken Andouille sausages are quite good). Use it also to sauce something like chicken or eggplant Parmesan, chicken saltimboca, or anything that calls for a marinara sauce.

A creamy tomato sauce is nice over pasta for a change, you can reduce some heavy cream in a skillet and then add some of the sauce until it's heated through.

Rita

JimK
09-21-2009, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Bryan S:
One of these days soon I'm going to put a video together for the pizza newbies on stretching dough.

OK Bryan. For the newbies, did you ever post this?

r benash
09-22-2009, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by JimK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bryan S:
One of these days soon I'm going to put a video together for the pizza newbies on stretching dough.

OK Bryan. For the newbies, did you ever post this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto - that would be good to see. I've been using Bryan's dough recipe. I have had some improvements, but it's still can be an issue. Even learned to toss and stretch with fists which helps quite a bit. But watching someone using the same dough recipe that used to work at a pizza shop would be great.

JimK
10-07-2009, 06:49 AM
Bump.

Bryan, you're killing us with the suspense here. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bob Sample
06-27-2011, 03:51 AM
Has anyone used this recipe and kept the dough more than 36hrs or frozen it?

Marc
06-27-2011, 06:16 AM
Haven't tried freezing it but have kept the dough for over a week with great success. If I know I'll be going for that long I'll reduce the yeast to 1/8 t.

Paul H
06-27-2011, 06:53 AM
Bob, Have frozen dough with mixed results. It's ok but not as good as the fresh stuff or dough you've had sitting in the fridge for a couple of days or more. Before freezing,I make sure the dough has been kneaded,risen at least once and punched down. It's ok in a pinch or if your too tired to mess around with making dough.

Rita Y
06-27-2011, 07:23 AM
Marc, that's very interesting. Are you referring to this particular dough or another one for its keeping qualities and reduction of the amount of yeast?

------------------------------------------

Bob, this is a very flexible and forgiving dough, and works around your schedule rather than the other way 'round. I have refrigerated the (thawed) dough balls for 2 or 3 days and had no problem.

Usually, I scale up the dough recipe to use one 5-pound bag of flour. After mixing and kneading, I divide it into 9 portions for 12-inch pizzas, shape them into very tight balls, roll them in flour (I don't oil the dough or the pan), and wrap in plastic wrap. You can let them stand for 15 minutes before freezing or not. I freeze them until solid and then pop them into a freezer bag.

To use them, I like to retard the dough before baking, so I pull them out of the freezer one or two days before I plan to make pizza, roll them again (still frozen) in flour, and place in a lightly floured Pyrex baking dish (again, no oil needed). I slip the pan into a large plastic bag and put it into the refrigerator. The dough balls for 12-inch pizzas can be left out at room temperature for an hour or so before refrigerating to get the thawing started.

I leave them refrigerated until the next day (or two). Around 1 p.m. of baking day I remove the pan from the refrigerator and let it stand at room temperature for 5 to 6 hours (it is pretty forgiving). Then I stretch the dough (it should be pretty soft and very extensible), top it, and bake.

This dough does not need to be kneaded or risen before freezing. If you do that, in my opinion, you lose the rustic character of the crust and might have smaller air pockets in the edges.

I haven't tried refrigerating the dough balls for longer than 3 or 4 days, so can't speak for longer times. One day I'll do it if I don't get too much static from the family..."Where's the pizza?"

If you feel comfortable with handling very soft doughs, you can add a little water to the recipe (I do). The softer, the better.

Rita

Bob Sample
06-27-2011, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Rita Y:
Marc, that's very interesting. Are you referring to this particular dough or another one for its keeping qualities and reduction of the amount of yeast?

------------------------------------------

Bob, this is a very flexible and forgiving dough, and works around your schedule rather than the other way 'round. I have refrigerated the (thawed) dough balls for 2 or 3 days and had no problem.

Usually, I scale up the dough recipe to use one 5-pound bag of flour. After mixing and kneading, I divide it into 9 portions for 12-inch pizzas, shape them into very tight balls, roll them in flour (I don't oil the dough or the pan), and wrap in plastic wrap. You can let them stand for 15 minutes before freezing or not. I freeze them until solid and then pop them into a freezer bag.

To use them, I like to retard the dough before baking, so I pull them out of the freezer one or two days before I plan to make pizza, roll them again (still frozen) in flour, and place in a lightly floured Pyrex baking dish (again, no oil needed). I slip the pan into a large plastic bag and put it into the refrigerator. The dough balls for 12-inch pizzas can be left out at room temperature for an hour or so before refrigerating to get the thawing started.

I leave them refrigerated until the next day (or two). Around 1 p.m. of baking day I remove the pan from the refrigerator and let it stand at room temperature for 5 to 6 hours (it is pretty forgiving). Then I stretch the dough (it should be pretty soft and very extensible), top it, and bake.

This dough does not need to be kneaded or risen before freezing. If you do that, in my opinion, you lose the rustic character of the crust and might have smaller air pockets in the edges.

I haven't tried refrigerating the dough balls for longer than 3 or 4 days, so can't speak for longer times. One day I'll do it if I don't get too much static from the family..."Where's the pizza?"

If you feel comfortable with handling very soft doughs, you can add a little water to the recipe (I do). The softer, the better.

Rita

Thanks Rita, I sent you a email last week to the address on your profile but it probably ended up in your junk file.

I'm taking dough to the cottage and doing pizzas for about 8 people on the 3rd or 4th night. Fridge space is limited so wanted to freeze it. Guess I'll be good to go.

I've also had trouble with it being very sticky and elastic to work with. Should I just add more flour to the the balls when forming or should I add more flour when mixing. I use a scale when doing my ingredients and make it in a mixer.

Thanks for your help.

Rita Y
06-27-2011, 03:31 PM
Bob, I've been having trouble getting a few, but not all, emails this past couple of weeks. Sorry yours didn't get through. We're trying to see what the problem is. Let's see if I can help with the pizzas. I'm glad you are weighing the ingredients. What brand of flour are you using? Canadian bread flours might have a slightly different protein level than ours, but I have no information on that.

First, Gold Medal has changed the name, not the formula, of their bread flour from Harvest King to just bread flour. I've changed that in the ingredient list of the recipe.

You say the dough is very sticky. Is this when making the dough or when trying to shape the pizzas? The dough is normally a little sticky when making it, but try not to add any more flour than you need to. It does take a little practice to work with sticky doughs. Keep your hands and work surface floured.

If it is really sticky when trying to stretch it, it might have been overproofed. The ball of dough should spring back gradually when you poke a finger about 1/4 inch into it. If the indentation remains after a couple of minutes you are probably overproofing it. Note that I have edited the recipe with a suggestion of 5 hours to proof it instead of 7. Sorry that I didn't catch that sooner.

You mention the dough is very elastic. Just to be sure we are on the same page, when is it elastic? When mixing or when stretching? By elastic, do you mean that it springs back when you try to stretch it, or that it stretches out by its own weight?

Rita

Paul H
06-28-2011, 01:02 AM
Rita, I've frozen dough without kneading and letting it rise and it seems real "non elastic" when defrosted.So, I went to letting it rise. Of course, now that I think about it,it could have been the flour I used or the water. I now use distilled water with great results.

Bob Sample
06-28-2011, 03:13 AM
Rita I sent this to your email but thought other noobs to dough could benefit from my incompetence and lack of knowledge.

Hi Rita,

Thanks for your help. I use Robin Hood bread flour which is pretty much the standard for flour where I live. The dough gathers on the hook when I mix it but still sticks a bit to the bottom of the bowl. When I stop the final mixing and remove the dough from the bowl it sticks to the bowl.

I have been proofing it for 5-6 hrs. When stretching the dough it is difficult to stretch and springs back, which can get a little annoying. The end result is fantastic, a nice chewy crust with puffy edges. I'm just thinking it should be easier to handle. I have also cut the salt in half but I don't think that should make a difference.

I have no experience with baking but since trying this dough recipe I have tried my hand at different style buns with some failure and some success. I just need to learn the characteristics and uses of different flours and yeasts. Heck before this I didn't even know there was bread flour and all purpose flour.

Cheers

Bob

Rita Y
06-28-2011, 03:34 PM
Bob, Robin Hood bread flour is an excellent flour; I believe it is a bit stronger (higher protein) than the Gold Medal I use, but should work fine, as will King Arthur bread flour.

When using the mixer, you really should use the dough hook instead of the paddle. Mix just enough to moisten all the flour (scrape the sides of the bowl occasionally to make sure that the flour in the bottom of the bowl is incorporated), cover, and let rest for 15 minutes. This step is pretty important so that the flour is well and evenly hydrated before the final mixing. You give a good explanation of what your dough is like and should indeed be like: during kneading, it will stick a little to the bottom of the bowl and be somewhat sticky to work with. Yes, it will stick to your hands and does take a little practice, but you'll be comfortable with it before long. I find that keeping your hands floured well helps the handling of the dough. Also, when working with it, use quick, light, strokes rather than strong, purposeful ones and it will stick less to your hands.

TIP: Before rinsing off your hands, briskly rub them together to make most of the stuck-on dough "pill" up and work itself off your hands. You might have already discovered that trick.

The dough springing back when stretched is usually a sign that it is underproofed. Do the finger poke test that I previously described at the 5- and 6-hour mark. If the indentation fills in slowly, wait another 30 minutes and repeat if necessary. I believe that Robin Hood is a stronger flour and might require a little more time. Try a 7-hour proof.

Yes, it is annoying when the dough springs back when stretching. This dough should not do that. If it does happen, stretch it as far as you can, then cover it lightly with a non-terrycloth towel, and let it rest for 10 minutes (while working on a second dough ball, perhaps). Then gently stretch it again. I usually hold a small circle of dough up by one side and work it around in my hands in a circle, keeping the edges a little thicker. Its weight alone might stretch the dough.

Do not change the amount of salt in the recipe. The salt in this recipe should always be 2.0% of the weight of the flour. Salt brings the dough together and does make a big difference in the dough. Reducing the salt might be contributing to its stickiness for you. You can change the amount of yeast to adjust rising times, but it would be best not to change the salt percentage.

You are doing great if you are as inexperienced as you claim! Your description of the dough and your problems is definitely not from an inexperienced person. You are "in tune" with your dough - very encouraging. Experience will teach you the "feel" of doughs. Keep on weighing the ingredients and take good notes. When I taught myself to bake with yeast, I used to make the same recipe back to back at least twice in the same day, making only one change. It was a good way to compare the feel of the two different doughs and see how the change affected the final outcome. It takes time and practice, like anything worthwhile. Consider it an adventure.

Rita

Bob Sample
06-29-2011, 03:51 AM
Thanks for the help Rita. I'll let you know how it works out.

Marc
06-29-2011, 04:13 AM
Rita,
Often, I'll make up three dough ball in which I stager the amount of yeast from 1/8 t to 1/2 t. The 1/2 t would be for the next day, 1/4 t in a few days, 1/8 t, four plus days.
It's easy (although a bit time consuming) to individualize as I usually mix in the FP pretty much using your method. To help avoid over heating the dough I use ice water. Out of the processor each dough ball gets a bit of hand kneading, a mist of oil, into a 2qt cambro, into the fridge.
First was doing this with Bryan S (long ferment dough) but I think it works better with the higher hydration of this recipe.
BTW/ Can't thank you enough for posting that sauce recipe! Use it all the time. Since it is no cook I usually add a tiny bit of fish sauce to replace the anchovy in my cooked version.

StanHenson
07-01-2011, 05:40 PM
This is a good thread! I just wanted to share a few more dough tips. I have a wood fired oven and make pizza dough weekly, so I've been through a lot of trial and error.

1. Wet hands make good dough. When you're stretching or handling the dough prior to shaping, try water on your hands instead of four. Pizza dough flourishes when wet. The wetter it is, the easier it stretches.

2. Try all purpose flour. King Arthur AP makes a fantastic pizza at 65-70% hydration. Conventional wisdom says high protein flour is needed for great pizza. That just isn't so. If you're having stretching trouble, try AP.

3. Be gentle with the dough disk's lip if you want a puffy crust. Look up shaping technique videos by Pasquale Makishima; you don't need to toss for great pizza.

4. Overnight is right. Keep it cold to draw out the flavor in the flour.

Paul H
07-02-2011, 02:44 AM
Stan, great tips!!! I've been using double 00 flour with good results. We just had a Fresh Market open up here and they carry KAAP. Will have to pick some up and try it.

StanHenson
07-02-2011, 05:40 AM
Paul,

I'm not saying KAAP is the bee's knees. It's just a very good, unbleached AP that I've found to be remarkably consistent from bag to bag. In pizza, like in barbecue, consistency and reproducibility is SOO until you get a feel for the variables.

If you want to spend some dollars and eat some GOOD experiments, I can't speak highly enough of Caputo 00 flour. An overnight pizza dough with Caputo, cooked on a hot enough fire to brown it, is a thing of pure beauty.

Paul H
07-04-2011, 02:11 AM
Stan, I've heard about Caputo but my access to real quality flour is very limited other than the internet. I try to use bread flour. I heard it is higher in protein than normal flour. When I go to St. Louis I pick up the good stuff to bring home. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

StanHenson
07-04-2011, 04:34 PM
Hey Paul,

I see that you're from Evansville. I lived in Owensboro for 20 years. Vecchios Market in Newburgh almost surely has Caputo. You might want to see. Its not just the protein in that flour. Its the grind and the GREAT extensibility.

Stan

Paul H
07-06-2011, 01:16 AM
Stan, thanks for the tip . Will head over to Vecchio's. May just have lunch while I'm there. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

r benash
07-07-2011, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by StanHenson:
Paul,

I'm not saying KAAP is the bee's knees. It's just a very good, unbleached AP that I've found to be remarkably consistent from bag to bag. In pizza, like in barbecue, consistency and reproducibility is SOO until you get a feel for the variables.

If you want to spend some dollars and eat some GOOD experiments, I can't speak highly enough of Caputo 00 flour. An overnight pizza dough with Caputo, cooked on a hot enough fire to brown it, is a thing of pure beauty.

Gotta say I'm with Paul AFA KAAP flour. It's something I can get routinely and has performed over time extremely well for Pizza cooks. I've used the KABF as well but the AP is always on hand and works very well.

Once I have run out of my current pizza dough from my last batch going to try Rita's dough recipe and use KABF just to see... up to now I've been using Bryan Stepens (sp?) old post with great success.

Rita - your "uncooked" sauce is very close to mine. I'm of the same mindset that the sauce should not be cooked until it goes in the oven with the pie http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Much fresher taste IMHO.

Bob Sample
07-11-2011, 05:15 AM
Ok back from the cottage and everything worked great.

I followed the exact recipe and froze the dough immediately after forming the balls. Thawed the dough overnight in the fridge then removed in the morning and let it sit for 7 1/2 hours.

While I was getting the Q ready the dough was stretched and my wife said it was much easier to work with than previous dough so I think my main problem was under proofing the dough.

Made 8 12" pizzas over the next 1 1/2hrs and everyone loved them. The dough didn't puff as much as normal when cooked but I think that was because I didn't have the kettle as hot as normal.

Thanks for the help Rita.

Rita Y
07-11-2011, 05:40 AM
Bob, thanks for posting your success. I'm glad it worked so well for you. Eight 12-inch pizzas! You were one busy dude!

I suspect that your dough would have puffed a bit more if you had stretched an hour or so earlier. It's preferable to stretch a little short of totally proofed than overproofed. But now that you have a timing set from experience, you can play with it a little, say reduce proofing time by 30 minutes and see what happens.

Another thing you can play with is to add a tablespoon more water to the dough each time you make it. That should puff up the dough some too.

Remember, your proofing time will be slightly longer in the cold weather than in summertime depending on the ambient temperatures.

Rita

Bob Sample
07-12-2011, 03:27 AM
I figured since I was starting with cold dough from the fridge that a little longer proofing wouldn't hurt.

I'll be trying again next week so will try a little extra water. I'm also going to try freezing a couple of the proofed balls to cut down on the lead time if I want pizza. I'm a spur of the moment kind of guy.

Once again thanks for everyones help. Sourdough bread next.

Rita Y
07-12-2011, 04:11 AM
Bob, I understand about wanting to cut down on the lead time. With proofed dough, you want to handle it somewhat gently so that it doesn't deflate much, even during stretching. You want to retain as many of those bubbles as you can.

Would you please let us know how freezing the proofed dough works? I'm a little skeptical about that but since I've never tried it, I'm curious to see how it will work. It would be a nice time-saver, and handling cold dough is easier too.

Rita

Bob Sample
07-12-2011, 04:32 AM
Well of course I'll let you know how it works.

StanHenson
07-14-2011, 12:17 PM
Bob,

I'm not completely convinced you can overproof pizza dough, as the final dough is smashed flat and stretched. My reasoning is based on hundreds of doughs that I've fermented at room temperature in the Florida summer.

How are you shaping your dough disks? If you smash the rim of the cornicione while shaping, you won't get as dramatic a puff. As long as your grill was 500F or higher, you should get a fairly good puff on the cornicione unless it's been smushed in handling.

Stan

Bob Sample
07-14-2011, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by StanHenson:
Bob,

I'm not completely convinced you can overproof pizza dough, as the final dough is smashed flat and stretched. My reasoning is based on hundreds of doughs that I've fermented at room temperature in the Florida summer.

How are you shaping your dough disks? If you smash the rim of the cornicione while shaping, you won't get as dramatic a puff. As long as your grill was 500F or higher, you should get a fairly good puff on the cornicione unless it's been smushed in handling.

Stan

I have been starting with the ball and pushing from the inside out. I try to leave a nice ridge around the outside. It usually puffs up nice if my kettle is hot enough.

Bob Sample
08-23-2011, 06:49 AM
So I finally got around to trying frozen proofed dough. It worked out well but I don't think it was quite as good as frozen and then proofed. It's hard to say since it didn't come from the same batch of dough.

I think I'll do it again since I can decide on the spur of the moment, almost, to have pizza.

Rita Y
08-23-2011, 07:03 AM
Bob, did the frozen proofed dough give you good oven spring in the outer edges of your pizza? That would be one area you would notice a difference.

How long a time period was it from the time you took the proofed dough out of the freezer to the time you shaped and topped it, and immediately put it into the oven?

Rita

r benash
08-23-2011, 07:18 AM
In my case I have frozen proofed pizza dough several times now. Used BryanS's recipe. I haven't really noticed any difference in quality after the cook in my case.

I have used it pretty quickly though. It defrosts in about an hour (or less). I just let it sit for about 30 minutes or so while I'm prepping stuff and used it right away. It had the shame qualities, during stretching and shaping as when made right after proofing.

This is a cold ferment dough though.

Bob Sample
08-23-2011, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Rita Y:
Bob, did the frozen proofed dough give you good oven spring in the outer edges of your pizza? That would be one area you would notice a difference.

How long a time period was it from the time you took the proofed dough out of the freezer to the time you shaped and topped it, and immediately put it into the oven?

Rita

Rita it sat for about an hour or so on the counter. I don't think it was as puffy or as chewy as the fresh dough. I did cook it in the oven which doesn't get as hot as my kettle so that may have made a difference.

All in all it was better pizza than what we get from our local pizza shops so I think I'll freeze it this way again but if I have the time I will definitely do it fresh.

Rita Y
08-23-2011, 08:04 AM
Ray and Bob, that's very interesting. The next chance I get, I'll set aside one dough ball, proof it before freezing, and try it myself. I've been freezing 11 dough balls from 5 pounds of flour for 12-inch pizzas. Since I bake 2 at a time, it will be a good way to compare the results.

Rita

Paul H
08-24-2011, 01:43 AM
Rita, yeah, let us know. I would be interested. My results were like Bob's. Not impressive but ok in a pinch.

JSMcdowell
08-24-2011, 05:31 AM
Finally got around to making my first dough. Thanks for this thread Rita. 1 of my first 2 came out great, the other was a little deformed since I placed it too close to the other while proofing.

I froze the other 2 to make later this week.

Thanks again!

JimK
09-06-2011, 05:21 AM
Just wanted to say that I made my second batch of this sauce on Friday and it is just fantastic. I'm hoping to try the dough this week. Thanks for sharing Rita.

A.D.Letson
09-19-2011, 11:21 AM
I tried this dough recipe this weekend and I was really impressed, especially considering I had to cut some corners to fit my situation.

I used:
500 g King Arthur AP flour
1/4 tsp instant yeast from Sam's
2 tsp kosher salt (didn't read the recipe fully. Still came out well.)
330 grams filtered water.

Mixed by hand until shaggy. Let rest for more like 20 minutes (trying to dress children, clean up breakfast, and get to church on time while making pizza dough will do that to you) and then hand kneaded to about 5 minutes.

The first thing I noticed is that this is a higher hydration than any other pizza dough I've ever done. I was able to knead it on the counter with no additional flour and no bench flour, but you had to move quickly. It got superbly stretchy (better than any hand kneaded dough recipe I've ever tried) and I divided it into 2 dough balls. Put on counter, covered with plastic wrap, and let proof for about 3.5 hours (hungry toddler=shorter proof). Topped with leftover sauce from last pizza, sliced mozz, and pepperoni.

I cooked it per the instructions with a Fibrament stone heated for one hour @ 550 at the 2nd to highest oven rack.

All I can say is that this is wonderful dough. Even with the short proof, great flavor development and excellent oven spring. I have a problem with the middle of my pies being soggy but this "popped" up and was nice and chewy. I hope Bryan S doesn't read this because this dough has officially taken the place of his as my go to crust. Thanks!

Bob Sample
02-22-2012, 09:15 AM
Rita just curious if you ever tried the frozen proofed dough and compared it to frozen unproofed dough?

Rita Y
02-22-2012, 09:52 AM
Sorry, Bob, but I haven't tried it yet. I've had some priority projects lately and I can't seem to get to pizza making. I need to time it for when I am using my last frozen dough balls. Thanks for reminding me and for spurring me on!

What is is your current approach?

Rita

Bob Sample
02-23-2012, 04:17 AM
@ Rita, I've pretty much been making it fresh every time. I have cut the salt back to 11/4 tsp and proofing for 7 hours. I also add 1 tsp dry rosemary and 1 tsp dryed oregano, my fresh herbs are under 2 ft of snow right now.
I've also been adding some garlic powder and gradually increasing the amount,I'm at 1/2tsp + a pinch. When my wife notices it I'll know I've got enough.

r benash
03-02-2012, 10:13 AM
OK, so I'm all out of my reserves of Byan's recipe so why not - after all I have the cookbook.

Made up a recipe of this pizza dough. To spec/weight except I added some dough relaxer.

I'm taking two of the 1/4's and have them in dough tins in the beer fridge to cold ferment now. Probably going to leave them there for 48 hours.

The other two 1/4's went straight into the freezer after the prep before proofing. We'll see how they work out out of the freezer at some future date.

The ones in the fridge I'm going to use my own standard sauce that I make/like and work up some anchovy pizzas. Had some in Italy and have been wanting them since. A big key is using white anchovies.

We'll see how things turn out as I report back.

Rita Y
03-02-2012, 02:40 PM
Ray, I don't suppose the dough relaxer will hurt anything, but I find the dough from the first page of this thread very extensible after the 5- or 6-hour proof. Save your money. But you'll see. Have fun with it. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rita

r benash
03-03-2012, 02:52 AM
Hey Rita - yeah we'll see. Petty much a basic recipe. And I've used KA bread, ap, and other flours in the past. All had spring back that I found annoying to one degree or another. So double headed this experiment if you will.

Next batch I'll try it without the relaxer (already had it) and see if there's any difference.

BTW first page recipe is what I'm using, have the same book http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

r benash
03-04-2012, 11:08 AM
Excellent recipe, actually the whole book is excellent IMHO.

Also tried the new fibramet stone. Nice bite and chew to the crust as is. Made one white anchovy and one margherita. Both excellent.

500+ degree oven upper rack. Nicely browned top and bottom. A winner.

We'll see how the frozen dough works in the near future.

Paul H
03-05-2012, 03:31 AM
Don't want to hijack the thread but a question concerning kneading. If you use a KA mixer to knead how long and at what setting would you use? I think I over did it on my last batch- too high and too long

r benash
03-05-2012, 04:12 AM
Good question Paul. I adapted totally to the KA.

The recipe calls for 10 minutes of kneading. Normally I would just set the timer and knead by hand.

I had a number of conference calls and "needed" to be flexible.

I set the timer on 15 minutes as I knew that I would be pausing to strip the dough hook down several times during that process.

Worked great. I set the KA on 1 for speed.

General recommendation would be to keep the speed low and allow time to stop and strip the hook. Even 20 minutes total time in this context would be fine, I.E. strip the hook more.

Thing is you really are just looking at touch and feel, silky texture not time. The timer is just a gauge.

Bob Sample
03-05-2012, 05:15 AM
by stand mixer: Measure the flour, yeast, and salt together in the mixing bowl and stir them together by hand. Using the dough hook, mix on low speed while pouring in the water; continue to mix on low speed just until the dough gathers around the hook, about 3 minutes. Cover the bowl and let the dough rest for about 10 to 15 minutes to allow the yeast to fully hydrate. Mix the dough on medium speed for about 3 minutes, until the dough is fairly but not perfectly smooth.


I just follow the directions in the original recipe and it works out well. Except I do it on #1 both times. If I do it on #3 my mixer wants to jump off the counter.

r benash
03-05-2012, 07:59 AM
Bob's directions are from the recipe up to the intial mix.

After that it tells you to kneed by hand for 10 minutes.

My instructions were intended to pass and include on what I did for the knead after the mix/rest for 3 minutes.

Rita Y
03-05-2012, 08:30 AM
I'm confused as to what you are doing or asking. The instructions on the first page of this thread say you have 3 options (choose ONE) for mixing the dough:

BY HAND:
Mix the ingredients just to combine them.
Rest the dough 10-15 minutes
Knead the dough BY HAND for 5 to 10 minutes, then divide the dough.

OR BY MIXER:
Mix the ingredients just to combine them.
Rest the dough 10-15 minutes
Mix on medium speed for about 3 minutes, then divide the dough.

OR BY FOOD PROCESSOR
Mix the ingredients just to combine them.
Rest the dough 10-15 minutes
Process in 3 or 4 (30-second) intervals, then divide the dough.

This dough doesn't need to be worked very much.

Rita

r benash
03-05-2012, 10:41 AM
By Hand:

"Knead the dough BY HAND for 5 to 10 minutes, then divide the dough."

I kneaded in the KA for 5-10 minutes on low speed after the 10-15 minute rest.

Some people just can't follow directions http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bob Sample
03-05-2012, 11:26 AM
@ Ray Haha after your 2nd last comment I figured I was doing it wrong so I reread the instructions 3 times before I scratched my head and gave up.

r benash
03-05-2012, 12:34 PM
Hey Bob - yeah. The pizza was excellent even with my hamming it up is all I can say.

Over-working can make the dough stiff, but I think using the setting at 1 on the KA mitigated that.

Not to mention the relaxer I added to the recipe. A lot has to do with touch, feel and spring back during this stage and I was going more by that than any actual timing.

Thing is the dough was silky when I pulled it from the KA bowl. Separated and rolled nicely to the prep in the recipe. This was a really nice dough to work with.

Rita is the expert though and has done this recipe a billion times, so she can give you better tips than I.

I'm sure if you follow the recipe exactly you will be successful!

Rita Y
03-05-2012, 12:35 PM
OK, gentlemen. We're all on the same page now? http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ray, you're a hoot! It's interesting what can happen when one is distracted. Not a very big oops at all and luckily no harm done. The dough is pretty forgiving.

Bob, giving up is not allowed here.

Any questions? Just ask.

Rita

Bob Sample
03-06-2012, 03:46 AM
My only question was, where Ray got the further instruction to knead the dough for 10 minutes after the mixer but we got that all figured out.

Thanks for any past and future help.

r benash
03-06-2012, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Bob Sample:
My only question was, where Ray got the further instruction to knead the dough for 10 minutes after the mixer but we got that all figured out.

Thanks for any past and future help.

Just from intuition and working with dough in general.

I knew I wanted it to smooth out to silky texture with just a little push back or none as I worked the dough. I adapted the 3 minutes on medium to 10 minutes on low. I stopped the machine and stripped the hook a bunch of times during the process.

As - I pretty much stopped the machine as set on low about every 2 minutes or when it crawled up the hook and I felt it wasn't really being kneaded. I went by touch and feel until I thought it was "done".

If I was straight up kneading by hand which I couldn't do this trip as I needed to be able to go off mute and talk on a conference call. I would have just hand kneaded for probably 8-10 minutes.

Again - the more you work with dough by hand you will understand that touch/feel is more important than strict timing.

If you are dong the mix totally by KA - as you move the speed to low and are stripping the hook every 2 minutes or so. This to me equates to 3 minute on medium where you are not stopping the machine at all and just watching it.

I was doing a touch and feel, stop/starting stripping the hook on the machine for 10 minutes while set to low.

JSMcdowell
03-06-2012, 05:22 AM
Ray,

Thank you for you detailed explanation. Each time I make this I get a better feel.

I have made this a few times now and I have been freezing the leftover balls prior to proof. I just set it in the refrigerator the night before to thaw, and then in the morning put it out on the counter and head to work. When I come home it is ready.

r benash
03-06-2012, 05:46 AM
Josh - that's my plan for the two balls I placed in the freezer. It's a good recipe, worked well with the stone. On it's way to being my new standard.

Rita Y
03-06-2012, 02:26 PM
Josh, that's the way I do it. I usually allow for a 5-hour proof, but I've added a skosh more water to the dough. When I shape it for a pizza, it stretches by its own weight and I have to turn it quickly to keep it round.

Ray, do you mean to tell us that you can't knead dough by hand while you're making a conference call? Where are your priorities?

Rita

JSMcdowell
03-07-2012, 06:12 AM
Rita, "turn it quickly" is very key. Learned that one quick! I have also been wetting my hands with water, which really helps (Thank you Stan for that tip!!)

I have a new (to me) stone coming this week so I will be back on the pizza kick. I am using shelf out of a kiln, an extra from a family member. My current stone broke around the edge, but is still somewhat useable.

r benash
03-07-2012, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Rita Y:
Ray, do you mean to tell us that you can't knead dough by hand while you're making a conference call? Where are your priorities?
Rita

Yeah, I think I should just retire http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A.D.Letson
03-07-2012, 01:02 PM
How thin does everyone stretch this dough? Because it is so extensible, I have had trouble keeping it from stretching beyond the point I wanted it to.

Also, what brand cheese do you use? My favorite so far (don't laugh) is the Walmart brand whole milk mozzarella block. I slice it and put it on.

Rita Y
03-07-2012, 06:10 PM
If the dough is too extensible for you, you might cut back on the water by about 1 tablespoon and see if that makes it easier for you to handle, but eventually, you'll get used to handling the wetter dough. Also, no one is going to give you any demerits for using a rolling pin either. http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

From a dough recipe with 500 g flour, I usually make either 2 (12-inch) pizzas or 4 (8- or 9-inch) individual pies.

As far as how thin to stretch the dough...not so thin that you can read a newspaper through it! You can stretch it to almost any thickness that you'd like, so it will support the toppings. These pizzas are usually not "loaded"...cheese, sauce, and up to 2 or 3 other items is usually plenty. If it stretches thinner than you'd like, just lay the crust down and gently prod it into a smaller circle, working into the center in order to make the center a little thicker. It's pretty forgiving.

As far as cheeses go, use what your taste buds like. Some people use sliced fresh mozzarella balls but I find the cheese a little wet, at least for the ones I have tried, but it is a matter of personal taste. Mixing cheeses is nice. I sometimes use a mix of mozzarella, white cheddar, and Asiago. Or whatever I want to use up.

Personally, I prefer to use diced cheeses (about 1/2 inch dice) rather than sliced or shredded. The diced cheese when melted makes small cheese puddles, is less likely to overcook and get stringy at high temperatures, and gives a cheesier impact when you bite into the pizza.

A light drizzle of extra-virgin olive oil (including on the exposed crust) before baking the pizza, or a garlic or herb oil afterwards is very nice.

Take notes, jot down your toppings and cheeses, and whether or not you liked the combination. Note any changes that you might want to try for the next time.

Rita

JSMcdowell
03-07-2012, 06:52 PM
I like the diced cheese idea, thanks.

Rita Y
03-07-2012, 07:34 PM
Josh, another tip: You can 1/2-inch dice your cheese ahead of time, although I wouldn't do this for fresh, soft cheeses. Toss the cubes with a little cornstarch to keep them from sticking together, put them into a container, and refrigerate until ready to assemble your pizza. Any cornstarch clinging to the cheese won't affect anything. [I've frozen moderately firm, cornstarch-coated, pre-diced cheeses too. The cubes thaw pretty quickly.]

Rita

r benash
03-08-2012, 03:53 AM
Just another thought as we are talking about cheese and "do ahead".

We like Margherita pizza's. I actually like the "fresh" mozzarela from Trader Joe's as it's not as wet as truly fresh that I can also get from two different Italian markets very close. I prefer Buffalo over that. Anyway I have had excellent results in slices (1/8 in thick typically) that I have separated, frozen, vac sealed for later use. I can get really nice fresh basil all year.

We also like a version of pizza that uses relatively thick sliced provolone for the cheese (instead of grated, and not mixed). I've frozen and vac sealed that as well with no negative results on the next cook. I can get the slice to spec at local deli's but have used the packaged slices from Trader Joe's for this as well. The thickness is perfect as well as the quality. I've vac sealed them right in the bag they come in, I.E. I open to let air escape, place in a vac bag then seal.

JSMcdowell
03-08-2012, 05:07 AM
I have a local farmer's market with great cheese from all around the US and all around the world. I would say 50% of the time I end up throwing some out. I like the freezing idea.

I don't care for the mozzarela that is wet either. I am thinking of trying to make my own. Between the basil & tomatoes in my garden, the dough & sauce recipes, all I need is home made cheese to make a pizza entirely from home. To steal Sierra Nevada's label, an "estate" pizza.

r benash
03-08-2012, 05:39 AM
Hear you about cheese/going bad. Even if I don't freeze as above I typically vac seal it. Stays almost forever and don't end up tossing it.

Check out the TJ's mozz next time. It's in a vac seal but not stored in water. I have taken fresh mozz and actually sliced and pressed under a little weight between towels to remove some moisture before making a pie.

A.D.Letson
03-28-2012, 11:15 AM
Has anyone tried using starter in place of some or all of the yeast in this recipe? I've got a good starter going and I'm just getting into sourdough baking and I would really to try it in the pizza dough.

Also, I tried the pizza sauce recipe Rita and it was fabulous. Did everything by the book except for the marjoram because I didn't have any. I have to admit I was skeptical of that much garlic, but it was really good. Thanks!

Rita Y
03-28-2012, 07:41 PM
I'm glad you liked the sauce. I still do, after 14 years of making it, and never seem to tire of it.

I use a firm sourdough starter for breads, but haven't tried it for the pizza in a long time. It's a wonderful, very reliable starter. I haven't been baking much in the last 2 1/2 years and I just refreshed it after not touching it for those 2 1/2 years and it was ready to use after only 6 refreshments (3 days). I'm always in awe of it. Every time I feed it, I freeze the portion I would normally discard in about 2-tablespoon portions. Then I'll thaw one portion and add it to the dough I'm currently working with. It does wonders for the flavor.

For someone who does not have a sourdough starter, there is an easier way to bump up the flavor of your pizza dough and breads. It's called "Old Dough." Pinch off a knob of a dough that you're making after the fermentation (first rise), and freeze it. When making the next batch of dough, thaw it and add it to the dough. You shouldn't have to make any liquid adjustments to the recipe. It adds very nice complex flavors.

I'm assuming, though, that you have a liquid starter. I haven't played with liquid starters for years. Keeping in mind that you're after roughly a 6-hour proof, why not experiment by substituting some liquid starter for the small amount of yeast used (see below). You'll probably have to add just a little flour to compensate for the thinner starter.

Cut the recipe in half and practice on about 3 throw-away doughs in one mixing session (cheap ingredients) in order to get your timing down. Remember, in this dough, there is normally no fermentation, only a proof.

Maybe try 2 tablespoons, 1/4 cup, and 1/2 cup of active liquid starter in each of three 250-gram flour recipes and see if you come close to a 6-hour proof. It would be good if you could put each dough in 3 of the same type of container and mark the level of the top of the dough. That way it will be easier to see when the dough has doubled.

Then stretch out the dough that comes closest to 6 hours and bake it off to see if the oven spring, texture, and flavors are satisfactory.

This approach will likely give a mild sourdough flavor. Let us know if and how this works. I'm trying to stay true to the original recipe, but you might have to make a preferment the night before. But let's try the easiest test first. This will give us a starting point. You'll learn a lot from the process in any case. Of course, an easier approach would be to try an already-written sourdough pizza dough! http://tvwbb.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well, I wasn't planning to write a book here. I hope this is of some help to you. Let us know what you do.

Rita

r benash
03-29-2012, 02:09 AM
Liking your "book" regardless Rita. Great tips. I'm wondering "liquid starter" vs. firm". I keep a SF yeast starter at the ready in a jar in the ridge. Refresh it when I remember or use it. But in some recipes they will just tell you to add proofed or unproofed starter (for flavor) to a standard dry yeast recipe.

I like the idea of saving the toss, as I wondered, heck why don't I save some just as a flavor agent if I want that.

So I believe you are say that I could simply take a tablespoon or two out of the jar in the fridge and add it to any recipe if I'm looking for the flavor add and not trying to make a full out sourdough.

As you use your frozen "discards" is there a ratio say per cup of flour that you like to use or simply just judge. Probably not magic just perhaps to watch you don't change up overall hydration much?

A.D.Letson
03-29-2012, 04:26 AM
Wow Rita! Exactly the kind of stuff I need. Still VERY new to wild yeast baking. Your helpfulness never ceases to amaze!

When you say a firm sourdough starter, is that simply a starter that you have fed more flour than water to make it thicker? Why have you used that rather than a liquid starter?

You mentioned that the starter was ready after 6 refreshments or 3 days. How did you know it was ready? How do you judge how often to refresh? I thought it was only necessary to feed once a day.


I like the idea of saving the toss, as I wondered, heck why don't I save some just as a flavor agent if I want that.

I'm with r benash. This is a really good idea that I never thought of. I look forward to seeing the answer to his questions.

I needed to make a batch of dough last night before I got a chance to check for responses and I wanted to try the starter so I tried my first batch of Jeff Verasano's dough. Will probably cook it tonight but I love your experiment idea. I will do that next week. Any experiment that involves making more pizza is a good one!

Clint
09-02-2014, 06:41 PM
(Bookmarked!)

ChuckO
11-03-2014, 02:35 PM
Hi Rita Y

You wouldn't happen to have a white sauce recipe would ya? This is a great thread by the way :)

Rusty James
09-07-2018, 11:23 AM
Bumping this thread.