Building Rubs: Pork, poultry and beef


 
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Steve Petrone

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O.K. I need some help. In developing new rubs, I build on what I am familiar with. I start with salt, pepper, paprika and sugar. Easy enough. There is a group of spices I would like to use in rubs tailored to a particular kind of meat. For instance, I associate and like SAGE with poultry.

Here is a list of spices I am considering:
thyme, oregano, sage, coriander, celery seed, cumin, rosemary, basil, fennel and marjoram.

My goal is to take the basic ingredients and add any combination of the above spices to make a rub for beef, one for pork and, one for poultry. Yes I'll add other stuff-hot peppers etc.

The 64,000 dollar question is- and there probably is not one answer-
which combinations typically work with which meat family? Which are classics? Like sage and poultry?

Everyone's taste is different....but if we were attempting to please the public, what spices would they associate with which meats?

OK there are regional and cultural issues here I know. Just looking for a better guidline than what my experience suggests. Thanks for considering such a question which may not have a right answer.
 
Although they are seasoning mixes not necessarily rubs,you might check out Paul Prudhomme's original "Louisiana Kitchen" cookbook from 1984. The recipes have seasoning mix blends in them. PP says in the intro that these are the basis for his Magic mixes that he sell commercially. Later recipes of his only say
things like "1/2 tsp of Poultry Magic" or something similar. There are subtle differences in each type of mix. Hope this helps.
 
Steve,

I think it is useful to look at the proportions of sugar, salt, spices and herbs in various popular rubs. You'll find that the proportions differ for different meats, which will be part of your flavor formula. I did this for a pork rub I'm working on.

Jim
 
As neither a food historian or trained cook-much less trained chef-I only wonder if certain spice combinations are just indigenous to a culture and used on whatever meats were available. Take threads I have just read here. From marinating shrimp to marinating tri-tip, the base flavors were much the same. In an earlier thread I had surmised there must be some flavor profiles that are better for beef
and some better for pork. Perhaps I am wrong. there are many combos that work across meat types.

I am trying to get past one rub for all things.
 
I'm not sure who put that together for Epicurious--good idea but it sorely misses the mark, imo of course. It seems more like it was compiled because it's a good idea--it is--but less because the author(s) really wanted to delve into spice/herb associations. Because it is Epicurious one would think the associations would be based on 'classic' understandings; they are not--well, they are kind of sort of but don't really make sense, not within a classic interpretation nor within other cultural milieux. It is poorly edited, unfortunately, and unfortunately that is so frequent (and has been for years) among cooking-slash-food-slash-fine-living magazines (and quite a few books). CI is famous for basically well thought-out and well-tested recipes (though they are only occasionally the 'best') but notorious for second-rate lead-in prose. Gourmet lost their food focus when they decided years ago to devote copious space (and high dollar ad pages) to destination spas, high-end hotels, cruises, luxury whatevers and the like. Fine. But Gourmet? A re-name has long been in order. Many others have similar focus or editing problems.

I wax annoyed and digress before I've even begun my point. Forgive me (it's the wine).

I return to the subject at hand: spice pairings. Steve, you are correct that there are other issues--particularly cultural--that affect pairings; Pat's noting of Prudhomme's mixes (which despite what they're called are essentially rubs) is apt as these mixes highlight some of those issues in an interesting way; Jim's thought that it is useful to look at proportions is spot on; and Rita's comment 'as a simplistic start'--which I am taking as 'start simply'--brings it all home, as it were.

All of your listed spices go together; they go together well, though, if in proper proportion and proper proportion is determined by meat, yes, but also by cooking method and finish/serving sauce. It is also determined by overall quantity of rub applied. [Here, my interpretation of Jim's point.] Pairing are definitely culturally biased and that can be used to your advantage when creating new blends.

There are a few things missing from your list and maybe one or two that could be dispensed with (though the most casual scan of any of my recipes will tell you that I would dispense with no spice, herb or aromatic ever!). Add bay leaf to your list, no question. Garlic and onion are essential as well, imo. The basil could go as could the oregano--neither do very well in long cooks but both work in short or high-heat cooks. [Here, the essence of Prudhomme via Pat. Prudhomme really understood this point well and, the blather of Emeril and others notwithstanding, was largely responsible for codifying Cajun cuisine in the wider American food lexicon.]

If I might be so bold (and, what the hey, I just might) the 'public' has no clue so let's skip any attempt to get the public to associate X spice with Y meat. Well, okay, not no clue, but far less clue than they used to have. Once upon a time not too long ago marjoram was near ubiquitous here (it is essential in many of the sausage recipes many European immigrants brought to this country and was well known throughout (especially) the northeast, mid-west, north, and Texas. The same could be said of coriander, mace, nutmeg, white pepper, fennel, allspice and several others. Though none of these spices has gone anywhere mention any one of them to the average Joe or Joanne on the street and their eyes will glaze over. They don't really know them because most people don't cook anymore (yes, I know the Food Network's ratings--but people watch it and cook vicariously--a few more (relatively) might be cooking but it's not all that many; just look in the grocery cart of the bloke behind you in line).

My point: Don't focus on the 'people' till you're done developing your recipe. Just focus on what works for you. There'll be time to tweak to the tastes of your diners later--if tweaking is really necessary. People like all sorts of stuff but one often should refrain from telling them what they're eating till after the fact. Many people cannot make the intellectual leap when they hear or read ingredients or combinations foreign to them so they 'don't like it' before they even try it. Many people read what I do and don't get it at all; many taste what I do and pay me handsomely to do it again.


Yes--'there are many combos that work across meat types.' And yes, 'certain spice combinations are...indigenous to a culture and used on whatever meats [are] available.' What happens is that certain associations become prevalent within a cuisine and certain associations do not (or are even frowned upon). Within a different cuisine those rare or disdained associations from the other cuisine might be the ones prevalent or common in this one. Almost any spice and herb will work with any other and will work with any meat. Proportions become important. Though, e.g., thyme, cinnamon and nutmeg would not be thought of as a 'classic' (i.e. French or southern European) grouping, those are three of the items that go into the Jamaican classic jerk pork or chicken--along with garlic, allspice, ginger, onion, lime, hot peppers, etc. Make all of those items dry, remove the lime, and add some floral notes with lavender and rosebud and you'll have the makings of a Moroccan blend called raz el hanout, used for lamb and chicken. Take this new mix, remove the rosebud and ginger, nix the hot ingredients but add bay and rosemary and you'd have a flavor mix you might find in Provence, used for light fowl, lamb, beef, pork and some fish.

Growing up, there was ginger, cinnamon, allspice, cardamom, clove and nutmeg in the cabinet. All were used only in desserts my mother baked. Neither she nor, I daresay, anyone she knew at the time would have had a notion to pair any of those spices with any meats though all are commonly paired with any meat you can think of in many cuisines. Now I have a spice cabinet with nearly two hundred individual spices and herbs and Mom marvels at the possibilities and flavors she experiences when she comes to visit. If, years ago, I had said that dinner tonight was pork rubbed with those very ingredients from her cabinet of yore, slow-smoked over orange wood, then shredded and tossed in a simmering reduction of fig vinegar, slivered garlic, caramelized onion, thyme leaves and cumin she would have been 'polite' but not very interested. Since I never told her in my early days what she was eating till after the fact she now is up for anything having realized long ago that the possibilities are not limited to just what she is familiar with--and that, much more than not, she'll like the results because she trusts the cook.

So, blend away. In beginning to create blends for, in this case, barbecued meats one does need to keep in mind one's audience. I can do all sorts of stuff for my 83-year-old mother because her tastes and experiences have expanded greatly over the years. Many people are open to knew things--just don't tell them up front what you're doing. There are things that need balance in order to work best--contrasts or complements that allow the flavors to really work. Proportion is important, again. Yes, much of this subjective but much is, surprisingly, not. Sage works very well with chicken and turkey and can work as the predominant flavor in a mix for either. Interestingly, it works in the same relative quantities far less well with duck but will work with duck if rounded out with a couple of the warmer, sweetish spices and is complemented well by the sort of fruits (think sauces here) commonly associated with duck, like orange (sage and orange is classic) and cherry. Sage also works well with pineapple and that helps it work well with beef.

If you look at classic combinations within specific cuisines (not necessarily meant for barbecue) you'll get many ideas from which to start and these ideas, though possibly foreign to you or your audience, have stood the test of time within their respective cultural milieux. You can make combinations of combinations or combinations of elements of different combinations and play that way too. For example, the classic southern France combo herbes de Provence (bay, thyme, sage, lavender, marjoram, fennel, basil) often used for pork, chicken, lamb or fish in stews and braises is one such grouping. Others: white pepper, mace and lemon, white pepper, ginger and nutmeg, garlic, marjoram and black pepper, black pepper, nutmeg, cinnamon and clove (all examples of spice blends used in European pork sausages); hot pepper, cumin, coriander and oregano, garlic, onion, marjoram, cinnamon and thyme (both Mexican, beef and pork and turkey); bay, onion, garlic, cumin, oregano, orange (Cuban, beef and pork); coriander, cumin, hot pepper, ginger, black pepper and garlic, pepper, ginger, cinnamon, cardamom, nutmeg, fennel and clove (Indian stews--chicken and beef respectively)--you get the idea.

One thing I would be careful with is sugar. Lots of it can flatten flavors substantially, particularly when caramelized. It is quite possible to wean American palates off the predilection for everything sweet and if you really want to be able to up the variety of the flavor(s) of the foods you cook I recommend doing so. Many people respond very well to less sweet or non-sweet combinations--it is just a matter of exposure, balance and, perhaps, a little education--a little understanding of the possibilities--and making the non-sweet stuff stellar. My friends at home learned early on that there was no way I would serve a plate of spares (made with a sweetish rub) with a spicy sweet pineapple sauce, say, sweet smoked 'baked' beans, sweet slaw, sweet corn on-the-cob, etc. No balance in the food or on the plate = uninteresting to me and, now, to my friends as well. There is nothing wrong, of course, if one really prefers everything sweet. I mention it to say not everything in Q has to be and that while you are in development/play mode cutting the sugar back (or out) will help you better determine the flavors of your blends. If you add sugar add it last.

[Funny that most barbecue comp people I know have told me that how they cook for comps is not how they cook for themselves nor prefer to eat barbecue. For comps they're cooking for the judges and that means they cook sweet. That they don't especially like the stuff they turn in--even though it wins or places well--is pretty interesting.]

You can try rub blends fairly quickly by rubbing a small oiled hunks of slab bacon, piece of b/s chicken breast or thigh, slice of pork butt, piece of chuck top blade and placing them on a cake cooling rack over a sheet pan and roasting in a moderate oven till the rub is cooked/caramelized. (You can go with a slow oven if you wish.) Naturally, this is not the same as low/slow in your cooker with your preferred meat(s) but it will give you a fair idea of how your rub ingredients work together and how your rub works on various meat types cooked. Don't bother cooking till the meat is properly 'done' or anything like that--your focus is the rub so you only need the meat cooked enough to be safe. if it overcooks to leather no matter. You're going for a general idea of how your combo works, how it cooks, and how it works with the various meats.

I have had fun writing this. If you have managed to slog through it, good. I am off to the gym and then to eat--okay, guess the cuisine: an opening soup of tomato broth flavored with ginger, tamarind, very hot peppers, whole mustard seed and lime, flat bread wrapped around a mash of potatoes mixed with peas and flavored with ginger, garlic, turmeric, mustard seed and cardamom, goat stewed with onion, tomato, potato and lemon with the flavors of ginger, garlic, cinnamon, cumin, coriander, fennel, fenugreek and cilantro. Mmm.
 
Steve, you're going to love this! I just came up for air -- that's the best read I've had in weeks, if not longer.

Rita
 
Wow. What a read. I can vouch for what Kevin says. I cannot tell my husband what is in the rubs I prepare. He only knows that he doesn't like sweet, but there's usually some sort of turbinado in it, as in for pork. I've used Kevin's rub posted for me on chicken and hens, and he loves it, I just don't tell him what's in it. If I do, he'll say he won't like it.

So, I play with a lot of different tastes. Today for instance, I made a chicken marsala for one client, but it was not the usual marsala I continuously make for another. Have you ever heard of fresh sage leaves in marsala? This worked very well, with a little lemon juice reduction, just a splash of marsala reduced, and stock after that to reduce further. No pancetta this time, but that is usually used for another client because that's what they have requested for four years. I have to cook for other people's tastes, not mine, and there is more than one way to make marsala, piccata, teriyaki and curry. Regions, personal tastes, and then the chef's flair at the moment dictate the arena of flavors and ingredients that you will use. This is why I rarely use recipes, and cook with my heart.

Your background with training doesn't matter, it's your ability to be confident that certain ingredients will work together. I personally think that formal training can be more of a hinderance than anything else. Why people put so much emphasis on it is beyond me.

When Kevin was here and made his rub for the tri tip, I couldn't believe it. I had a myriad of ingredients he needed, but he knew the proportions. It was so good. I don't know what he did, and he measured nothing.
 
From Prudhomme to proportion and beyond there is a lot to consider. Yea, I admit I write to stir it up. I learn from the diversity of input. We all seem to learn when Kevin gets fired up. What I need to do is what I usually do when it is time to create-read and research.

You all challenge me to attempt to develope something interesting, tasty and, repeatable.
Lately, doing that with the fewest ingredients is my charge. Simpler recipes seem to encourage more people to take the first step.
 
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