First HH Brisket -- What happened?

I'm copying and modifying this post for TVWBB from The BBQ Source where I was trying to master the elements of PhotoBucket. Only so-so success with either the brisket or PhotoBucket. Maybe you folks can help? I'm sure you can.

PhotoBucket is a little frustrating, but I probably had too high expectations. Maybe it's the "beta", anyone know? What I've found so far is that a pic taken with a LxW orientation can't be reliably corrected to WxL orientation. PhotoBucket keep turning it on it's side despite setting to not automatically rotate. Also, I resized some photos and they didn't show smaller in the post -- just on PhotoBucket. That issue eventually disappeared though(?).

Anyway on Saturday, while Sandy was skirting the coast of NC, local temps were dropping and the wind picking up, I was doing my first high heat (HH) brisket per this post: http://tvwbb.com/sho...d-A-Compilation . I tried to follow ALL of Kevin Kruger's process, but there were some glitches -- that I will talk about. This was my Mom's 89th birthday celebration, so there were witnesses.

Here I am applying the paste (that and the rub I had prepared the day before).


After the paste, this is the first application of the rub. Note the baggy of rub in front of the brisket.


I put the brisket on when the WSM temp showed 200*. This pic is 30 minutes after starting. Temp was only about 300*. Note the brisket is jammed between the grate handles to fit on the WSM.


I used Royal Oak lumb because I thought it would get hotter and burn longer -- mostly filled the charcoal ring and added a full cimney of hot lit. All vents were open full and I cracked open the door for more air, but 90 min. in, the temp was only varying from 275 - 300 -- too low for HH method, but smoking just fine. (The cover only came off to take these two pictures.)


Just a pic of the situation. You can see the smoke against the post. And past the WSM is the new porch that I just completed last week.


So I did finally get the temp up to about 350 (no water in the pan), but only after adding more charcoal 3 hours after starting. Once the brisket temp got up to about 170, I wrapped it in foil and transferred to my grill at 350+ (always less than 400) until a probe indicated it was done. I think basically the brisket was overcooked as I was looking for "butter" consistency when probed, but it always had resistence. I finally took it off (after about 2 hours in foil) because I just felt it needed to be off. It rested 30 min before carving.

This is the slicing. You can't see the smoke ring well here, but it was very well defined and very vivid as I carved in.


About the brisket, it really was good, reasonably tender (not perfect) but rather dry. I'm not sure what the difficulty was, but a few things I noticed.
- It was NOT a VERY fatty brisket -- I cut off less than half of the fat that I typically would.
- I was not being able to get the temp up higher than LOW for an extended time.
- I was suprised that the Royal Oak lump I used burned so fast and did not get hot -- I expected it to be hotter than briquettes and to last longer. Even after adding another chimney, the "Made in USA" RO burned out completely in about 6 hours.
- There were NO drippings inside the foil and it WAS sealed tight -- just a little fat and a burnt edging around the bottom of the brisket which wasNOT burnt.
- The probe never went in like "into butter" (I know that feel on brisket.)

But I'll be trying again with a similar brisket that I bought at the same time. Maybe better luck next time.

Rich

Rich it didn't cook long enough. It was dry because the fat in it wasn't rendered. That also explains why you had no juice in the foil. If it was dry and crumbly it was overdone but from your description that wasn't the case.

Did you put the brisket on cold? If so I would let it sit out for a few hours to come up to room temp. That piece of meat was on big heat sink.

Also try bringing the smoker up to temp first next time. It will give it a fighting chance to stay up to temp for you.

Bob, What you say is part of the difficulty I'm having in trying to figure it out. It wasn't fatty and what fat there was seemed to be rendered well (except for the thicker pads on the outside). It was "dense" and dry rather than dry and crumbly. Carved well and has now been re-cooked twice in a chili and tonight in a Philly Cheese Calzone. Both were excellent -- the meat is not tough even after re-cook, though it does have some "bite".

The brisket was still chilled when I put it on, though it had been out of the fridge for an hour. I wanted to be sure it would "smoke" which is why I chose to put it on at 200 and still slightly chilled. I don't really have an issue with that part (though I'm willing to listen to and may follow your suggestions). If this was a low and slow, I would agree 100%, but it's more like it was depleted of fat and thus tending to overdone. I'm glad I followed my instincts instead of just time and "butter-like" probing in deciding to remove it.

I just don't know which is why I'm asking. I'm tending to it actually pretty much rendered out after 3 1/2 hours at 300 or so and getting to 170 (or so -- depends on where I poked the thermo). Then with the higher heat, I probably missed the "butter" probe because I was letting go based on the earlier long time getting to temp.

And if none of that makes sense, I don't blame you.

Rich

Here is my .02 -
Wait till the smoker is to temp when you put it on. A big chunck of meat will soak up a LOT of heat and a ton of energy will be used in getting hot. Also, the quality of the meat you buy is a big factor in brisket. Even on the really expensive cuts of brisket I find I have to inject them to get a really juicy one.
I also find that letting the brisket rest under a heavy blanket for 2-3 hours after it reaches temp is a good idea when cooking at HH. When cooking at HH I finish at about 200* and then let it rest for the additional time. It seems to me that this really breaks down the tissue and turns out a good product time after time. With plety O juice. If you just cook the flat it could have been a little dry also cuz all of the fat is in the point.
Just my input 4 what it's worth.
Good luck

Rich,

Just curious... from your description you said you used the lid's thermometer. Did you measure the temperature from a location just below the cooking grate and clear of any meat ? I suspect that temperature would be much higher than what was indicated on the wsm's lid thermometer.

I never use lump when I do HH. I find no matter what I do I can't pack it tight enough to give me the run times other people get. I use RO briqs. They seem to work fine for me. As far as the dryness is concerned might have just been the piece of meat. Try it again and see if that's not the case

Rich the fat on the surface really doesn't effect the moisture of the meat. It is the collagen in the meat that breaks down and makes the meat moist. I don't believe you can cook something past "butter" so it is tough again unless you cooked it till it became shoe leather. Dense and dry is undercooked. Collagen fibers attach themselves to the meat fibers, you don't need to see a bunch of fat to have good rendering.

For smoke flavour on a high heat cook I usually just get lots of chunks smoldering for the 2 hours before wrapping. I also use mesquite when I have some.

Another question. When you foiled did you foil it tight or loose. You should foil loose so you also get a steaming/braising effect going on in the foil.

From the look of your cutting board I don't think the length of your rest was a problem since there is no juice on the board.

Rich, you simply didn't cook it long enough. Cook it til it's jiggly and probes like butter, and I don't mean cold butter. It's surprising how long one can take, even when cooking at higher temps, but it would've been falling apart if it was overcooked.

Pulling the brisket out an hour before the cook is just fine. As far as measuring temp, there's no way to get a grate temp reading when it's completely full, so I'd suggest probing at the vent, which I guess is what you did, huh?

Lump is over-rated for higher temps. It's got to get oxygen to burn hotter, and briquettes don't impart a less than optimum smoke flavor if they're ashed over and burning clean...(which all in the top of pile should be if cooking at HH, anyway.) If using lump for a HH brisket cook I'd have the ring full, especially if it was RO. I use it, but because it's cheap. Probably would just as soon use K Comp for a HH cook, though. I'm convinced they burn hotter in the smoker than RO lump.

I do a more modified Minion start for HH. I just can't see trying to get a high temp when the smoker and the meat is so cold. It'll eventually get there, but for the sake of better temp and time estimation, why not just preheat the smoker? That gives time to get TBS, and even if you overshoot, it's gonna go back down after putting the meat on and closing it back up. Hope that helps for next time.

Thanks, guys, for all the suggestions. Believe me, there WILL be a next time -- other than "firm" meat (not tough), this brisket was good with promise. And I did get it "mostly" done in only about 6 hours, so that beats the 19 hours of the last one.

I'll try what you say (and I noticed the consistency of your comments) Bob, sounds like you've hit it right on the head as far as the collegen (as opposed to fat). I used the lid therm this time -- I know it is consistently 25* or so less than my Maverick stuck through a vent, so I actually assume +25. I'm basically trying to move to Kevin Kruger's no-therm, cook by probe ideal, so will continue on that track. I did use a Thermapen to check temps when I thought it was right. Frankly, the last time, the temp showed at 400*. That made me take it off even though I had read that there might be some absurd readings in the meat near the end of HH.

And I appreciate the remarks about using lump. I've only used it a few times and am not real familiar with it. Usually I stick to Stubbs briquettes. Currently also have some K and some RO briquettes in stock, so no difficulty there.

Rich

just out of curiosity, what grade of meat was your brisket?

The grade was Select. But I've used that often with really good results doing low and slow. Not saying that different cuts of Select meat may not be quite different in results.

Rich

Rich just another suggestion but you would have better luck achieving HH by adding a second dome vent. I see you have made a modification to the fuel door but you still only have one top vent for that extra air to exit efficiently. That may also be why you consumed more fuel. I've done the extra vent twice and the performance of the smoker is really increased.

1. Target 325-350 (prop open door if you need to). I personally trust the lid temp and figure it's close enough if not perfect.
2. Start with modified MM....I'll usually do 1/4 - 1/3 unlit on bottom and two lit chimneys atop it to start (somewhat of a chore to make fit)
3. As you did, Rich, foil at 160-170 (stall).
4. Leave in for at least 90 min then probe check for tenderness every 45 min thereafter.
5. Put back onto top rack unwrapped & uncovered to let bark tighten for 20 min or so

Above is what I've had some success with as it relates to HH briskets. YMMV. good luck

Monty House said:

1. Target 325-350 (prop open door if you need to). I personally trust the lid temp and figure it's close enough if not perfect.
2. Start with modified MM....I'll usually do 1/4 - 1/3 unlit on bottom and two lit chimneys atop it to start (somewhat of a chore to make fit)
3. As you did, Rich, foil at 160-170 (stall).
4. Leave in for at least 90 min then probe check for tenderness every 45 min thereafter.
5. Put back onto top rack unwrapped & uncovered to let bark tighten for 20 min or so

Above is what I've had some success with as it relates to HH briskets. YMMV. good luck

Click to expand...

Yeah, Monty. What I'm thinking (along with using Stubbs or Trader Joe's briqs) is to start with more lit -- I only used about 3/4 chimney. Also, what you and others said about more time. And on these minimally "fatted" briskets, I'm not going to remove any fat (which I think is what Kevin said anyway).

Here I am dreaming of doing another brisket when there is still about 3 lbs. in the freezer! That's ok -- let's see, Sheila wants to make spaghetti tomorrow, there's more chili to be made, and of course some great sandwiches to say nothing of burnt ends -- oops not enough... ALL GONE! Need more!

Rich

I essentially do not trim any brisket.....unless it has a big nodule that is unsightly. And, I put fat side down--I've bought into the "heat shield" argument. Best of luck.

Like Monty is suggesting, I followed the compilation Steve Cutchen put together and with the exception of being done a bit sooner it worked out well. I foiled at 168 degrees and it was jiggly in an hour and a half and gave me a cup of liquid to boot. This was the most fat I have ever left on a brisket before cooking. I did remove a bit of the hard fat between the point and the flat but left most of it in tact. I lit a full chimney of natural briquettes over a packed basket of lump. My dome temp stayed pretty much at 300 degrees( two vents) except for about 30 minutes of wind gusts so my grate temp would have been higher. This time I foiled a dry pan. I used my own rub. I'm a fan of HH but I believe there is more smoke flavor in LNS.

Monty House said:

I essentially do not trim any brisket.....unless it has a big nodule that is unsightly. And, I put fat side down--I've bought into the "heat shield" argument. Best of luck.

Click to expand...

Yeah, Monty. I've now bought into the "heat shield" argument myself. I think THAT is probably what actually saved this brisket. And as you and Gary along with other have said, I'm buying into the little or no fat trim idea also.

Rich

Ok, one quick comment as I start to work on yet another brisket. I just went through and carefully re-read the sticky on HH method. What I missed previously was the number of folks who said the meat temp could appear to skyrocket. I have a vague memory (at this point) of the temp jumping to 190 which caused me some concern about over cooking. I was going by the probe resistence (using my instant read), but couldn't help but notice the temp.

So I think that Bob Sample had it right in his first and following response (along with others). The collegen breakdown was likely not complete and so the brisket seemed dry. Just my thoughts as I go on to another brisket for my daughter's bithrday.

Rich

good post Rich. The last brisket I cooked I achieved similar results of it being a little dry. I think i under cooked as well. I look forward to seeing your next cook

Ok you really screwed with my head digging this post back up. I was like " when did I answer this post? I don't remember. Was I drunk answering again?" then I checked the date.

Rich when doing HH brisket the only temperature I check is the cooker. When it's 325-350 or so I put the meat on, 2 hours in I foil and depending on the size of the brisket I start checking for tender about 11/2-2 hrs later. I do mine on my kettle since it's easier to get to and maintain 325-375degrees. Good luck with the brisket.