BBQ'n at 160 degF


 

Mark Etheridge

TVWBB Super Fan
A guy I work with told me yesterday that he is big into BBQ. During the discussion he said that he did all of his cooking at 160 degrees and I was like
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!! I've never heard of anyone cooking that low before (I know cold smoking temps are around that range).

He has a custom built pit and says his ribs take around 14 hours as do his butts but everything turns out just perfect. He also does chicken, brisket, and whole hogs. From what I gathered, when he cooks, he cooks a lot. His last cook was something like 32 racks of ribs and 40 whole chickens.

Has anyone out there ever heard of cooking at this low temperature before? Pros/Cons?
 
A quick thought.

If you cook at 160*, the meat won't go above 160* and <STRIKE>won't</STRIKE> can't get overcooked. But might it dry out? Will the collagen to gelatin conversion happen at that low temp?

I guess someone could give it a shot - what can you lose? A rack of ribs?
 
I had a friend mistakenly try and cook a pork butt at 170 degrees, he came back in to work on Monday confuse why the temp. of the butt never got up to 195. When I pointed out the error in his logic he just laughed.
He cooked that piece of meat for a long time, and it never got where it could be pulled, he ended up slicing it.
 
Rendering occurs at low temps but the finish can be different (especially any hard fat deposits and, of course, skin), depending on the meat. One thing you do not get is caramelization. Some color, yes, actual caramelization, no.

I really see this a vogue approach and find it more amusing than anything else.

Evaporative pressure is very low at those temps so meat doesn't really dry out.

There is a method of very low temp cooking called sous-vide but it is not used for 'barbecue'; it might be used for cuts that are barbecued, braised, or otherwise slow-cooked however. It involves vac-packing the food items in question and then cooking in a constant-temp water bath for a number of hours. This method intensifies the flavor because the food is cooked under vacuum (flavor volatiles do not escape during cooking) but unless you're looking to serve thoroughly cooked but raw-looking meats you have to finish them for serving. (Short ribs or rack of lamb, e.g., are often cooked at a constant 136-140 temp, depending on the cook's preference, over many hours (often upwards of 24), and though the meat is cooked and flavorful, it retains its pink color and needs to be seared for serving.) I cook pork or duck confit sous vide--a constant 180 for 10-12 hours. But this is a whole nuther thing.

There can be benefits to cooking especially well-marbled meats at lower temps for most of their cook time--Prime or Kobe briskets and shoulder, heritage breed pork cuts, etc.--at temps ranging from 190-220. I don't see it for typical beef cuts nor commercial pork. And certainly not for poultry, commercial or not. What, pray, tell, is the benefit?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
Rendering occurs at low temps but the finish can be different (especially any hard fat deposits and, of course, skin), depending on the meat. One thing you do not get is caramelization. Some color, yes, actual caramelization, no.

I really see this a vogue approach and find it more amusing than anything else.

Evaporative pressure is very low at those temps so meat doesn't really dry out.

There is a method of very low temp cooking called sous-vide but it is not used for 'barbecue'; it might be used for cuts that are barbecued, braised, or otherwise slow-cooked however. It involves vac-packing the food items in question and then cooking in a constant-temp water bath for a number of hours. This method intensifies the flavor because the food is cooked under vacuum (flavor volatiles do not escape during cooking) but unless you're looking to serve thoroughly cooked but raw-looking meats you have to finish them for serving. (Short ribs or rack of lamb, e.g., are often cooked at a constant 136-140 temp, depending on the cook's preference, over many hours (often upwards of 24), and though the meat is cooked and flavorful, it retains its pink color and needs to be seared for serving.) I cook pork or duck confit sous vide--a constant 180 for 10-12 hours. But this is a whole nuther thing.

There can be benefits to cooking especially well-marbled meats at lower temps for most of their cook time--Prime or Kobe briskets and shoulder, heritage breed pork cuts, etc.--at temps ranging from 190-220. I don't see it for typical beef cuts nor commercial pork. And certainly not for poultry, commercial or not. What, pray, tell, is the benefit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin, what, if any dangers are there of 'BBQ'ing' at 160*? Foods will be in the 'danger zone' for extended amounts of time, especially poultry....granted they will eventually get to a normally 'safe temp'. Though I've heard of people BBQ'ing at low temps like this before, it just doesn't seem safe.

I've heard of the sous-vide method before and it really intrigues me. What would the ideal cut of say... beef be for one to give this a try with. How is the time and doneness determined when using this method? Any other information on this would be appreciated.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dsitterson:
I agree why cook that low I can't wait that long to eat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rather unusual, but I have to agree with dsitterson
 
Larry, the dangers are minimal, if any--as long as one cooks to safe temps.

It seems strange, I know, and you are right to intuit, as your post implies, that with the lengthy time there would be significant pathogen growth. C. perfringens, which one would expect on red meats, is an especially rapid grower but one would see significant growth of Campylobacter, Salmonella (both almost definitely present, especially on poultry), E. coli (rare but possible), and others.

All of these are going to be affected as temps rise into the 130s and above. Once temps are at that level it becomes a time @ temp dynamic; in other words, a temp of X for a specific number of minutes or more, will produce the same kill level as a higher temp for fewer minutes. Pasteurization occurs in both cases but, at lower temps, significant time is needed--well over an over at temps in the low 130s--compared to the few minutes, seconds or instant needed for pasteurization as temps hit 160 and higher.

Staph. aureus, a definite possibility on anything, is a very poor competitor with other bacteria present, especially spoilage bacteria. It would not like be a problem here. It becomes one on cooked foods. Cooking destroys the competition; food contaminated by S. aureus (as happens when the food is touched or by a misplaced sneeze or cough) after cooking has little to no competition at that point and if given the right conditions (like a too lengthy cool down period, or with cold foods, those that warm while sitting out on the counter then the picnic table for hours), Staph can grow to a point where it produces toxin that is very heat resistant. (Reheating won't affect it.)

Still, I see no benefit to barbecuing at temps this low. The leaner items like the poultries certainly don't need it and the fattier items simply do not cook any better by cooking more slowly than typical low/slow temps. And why sacrifice the flavor that develops at higher cook temps?

*****

There are two branches of sous-vide, pretty much--one, in which foods are cooked at their serving or desired finish temps (or below) and the the other, where foods are cooked above typical serving/finish temps but still lower than usual.

For the former, one might cook salmon at 104-114, lobster at 131, lamb racks, beef tenderloin or the like at 131, flat chuck roasts at 131; for the latter one might cook duck or pork confit at 180, short ribs at 176-180, chuck at similar temps. Much of this comes down to whether the item is considered a naturally tender item (like most seafoods, fishes, the meat tenderloins) or if higher temps are either necessary or 'necessary', the former can be, like for vegs which need higher temps in order to break down the cellulose structure in the veg, the latter, more of a personal preference thing, where on might want a more braised-like finish. An example of this is both confits that I make; another would be chuck or short ribs. Longer times--much longer times--are needed for less tender meats cooked at lower temps. Chuck is very interesting cooked at 131 for a full day. It looks uncooked but isn't. A finishing sear and then immediate service yields an extremely flavorful beefy finish with a soft texture--but a different soft than what is achieved by cooking at higher temps, in which case you'd likely cook more like 7-10 hours depending on the thickness of the meat. For beef, chuck is a favorite, both at low heat and higher. Another is a thick rib-eye, cooked at low heat.

Cook time is determined by the size of the cut (mostly thickness), whether it is a tender cut or not, desired finish texture and temp, and sufficient time to reduce any pathogens that might be present on the food--a time @ temp thing.

One can use a thermometer and rig a therm point on the bag using weatherstripping then use a needle-point probe. Though this can be useful, especially when learning or when needing a specific temo for safety reasons most combinations of time and temp used for sous-vide have that factor built in. (One tends to use combinations that are tried and true, so to speak.)

It is not hard to maintain a 180 temp in a pot of water on the stove (I partially cover) and that is how I got started. For low temps you need equipment because no fluctuations can be allowed. Sous-vide equipment is very expensive, considering, with prices from $900-100 and up for submersible heater/circulators to much more for large waterbath units. A way around this (which is what I did and many others before me have done) is to hit the online lab equipment resellers and get a used lab unit.

Strict food safety protocols are required for sous-vide, as you'd imagine.

There is a lot of information on this thread--but be prepared, it's 100+ pages. Read at your leisure but I suggest starting at the beginning. That way you'll see how other people new to sous-vide handled different concerns and you'll see the questions they asked, the answers they got, and the results of their experiments, as you read along. Hope this helps. If you have any questions let me know.
 
I'm even more intrigued now! Thanks for the detailed explanations for both questions. I will read the info on Sous Vide over the weekend and maybe give it a try next weekend at some point. Thanks!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:

It is not hard to maintain a 180 temp in a pot of water on the stove (I partially cover) and that is how I got started. For low temps you need equipment because no fluctuations can be allowed. Sous-vide equipment is very expensive, considering, with prices from $900-100 and up for submersible heater/circulators to much more for large waterbath units. A way around this (which is what I did and many others before me have done) is to hit the online lab equipment resellers and get a used lab unit.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Might be way off base here but, couldn't one get an electric hot plate and a Johnson A419 Temp controller to maintain a fairly close, say 120 temp + or - a degree or 2?
 
I don't know. The operative issue is temp stability throughout the pot--which is why circulators are used. Perhaps that could be recreated more cheaply but it's temp accuracy, stability and evenness throughout that has to be the focus.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K Kruger:
I don't know. The operative issue is temp stability throughout the pot--which is why circulators are used. Perhaps that could be recreated more cheaply but it's temp accuracy, stability and evenness throughout that has to be the focus. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok got you Bud. Really going out of the box here. So get a hot plate, Johnson A419 temp controller and the top of an old electric ice cream maker that you picked up at a yard sale for $1.00. Rig up a stir paddle and that might get you close for cheap. Or what about a Aquarium pump. That should hold up at 120-130 degrees. I know I'm way out there, but just thinking out loud.
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Minimum temp for long-cooked items has to be a definite 131 and you have to be able to rely on this. It is one degree above the actual top accepted top of the danger zone. For shorter stuff like seafood and fish temps are usually lower. Again, consistent temps can be crucial, but I don't see why one couldn't rig up something to achieve this.
 
Greetings. I have been lurking on this forum for a while now and have been thoroughly enjoying my WSM. While I have been the principal "smoker" in our household, my husband has been experimenting with sous-vide. Last weekend we combined our skills and cooked a brisket using both techniques. We chose brisket as our experimental meat because it is a little trickier (vs pork butt) to produce a perfectly juicy product.

I purchased a large (>14 lb) full brisket with an intact fat cap. I separated the point from the flat simply because it wouldn't lie flat on my grate. I prepped the brisket Texas BBQ Rub + Worcestershire sauce and smoked both pieces for about 2.5 hours (11:00 PM) - at this point the flat temp was 160 F. I left the point in the smoker (foiled) for a standard cook until morning (the point reached a final temp of 200 F - a little too long, but I was too sleepy to get up!). I pulled the flat from the smoker and divided it in half and vacuum sealed each with our Foodsaver and dropped both bags into our pre-heated circulating water bath (VWR - my husband is a scientist and had a spare one) at 175 F. The plan was to pull one bag out at 24 hours and one out at 36 hours, for comparison.

The following night, we pulled one bag out at 20 hrs (a little early, but we had friends over for dinner and we felt it was a good opportunity to test the brisket out on them). The brisket was JUICY, easy to slice (not falling apart, and delicious. The biggest difference (compared to the fully WSM brisket) was that the flavors were well distributed thoughout the meat. There was a nice smoke ring from the 2.5 hr smoke, but the smokiness permeated the whole brisket. The best decription it that it seemed braised rather than BBQ'd. It did not have a firm bark, but the color was a pleasant dark brown. It was a better product than the fully smoked/BBQ'd brisket point, according to our taste testers. The 36 hour bag was opened the following day, but there wasn't a marked change in texture compared to the 20 hr sous-vide brisket. We preferred the 20 hr brisket very slightly to the 36 hr, because the meat seemed a little more flavorful. Both bags had a lot of juice, which made a great sauce, but I wonder whether it would have been better if all that juice stayed in the meat. Comparing the sous-vide flat to the smoked point isn't such a fair comparison either, we decided.

Our next experiment is going to be with just brisket flats. 2.5 hours smoking time was plenty of smoke for us, but we are going to try to sous-vide the briskets at 150 F and 160 F to see if there is any difference in the texture of the finished products.

I am excited to tweak the procedure. One of the major advantages, I think, is that if I know that I only need 2.5 hours to smoke the brisket, then I can start it going at any time and I don't have to be up all night minding the smoker temps. Once the meat is in the water bath, there is no tending necessary. The bag can be removed and placed in the fridge if you are not ready to serve it immediately, and it can be rewarmed in the water bath prior to service.

Pork ribs are next on the list after brisket cuz I like them 'fall of the bone.'
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I am interested to hear all of your experiences with sous-vide. I think it has great potential for those 'tricky' meats.

Aileen
 
Welcome Aileen! Thanks for the interesting post. I haven't experimented with sous-vide yet; only read about it and seen a few demos. Let us know how the ribs come out!

Paul
 
It does have great potential, Aileen, and, echoing Paul, welcome!

One thing you might want to try is pastrami. Smoke as usual to the mid-160s then finish sous-vide ~175-180 depending on time. (I wrote a recipe here somewhere for New England-style 'red' pastrami, btw, if you're interested.)

Remember: If cooking sous-vide and not serving immediately it can be worth it, safety-wise, to ice-bath the package in order to cool it quickly and thoroughly before fridging, especialy if the item is on the thicker side, like brisket.

I cook brisket packers at high heat, about 4 hours start-to-finish, 2.25-2.5 unfoiled in smoke, the balance foiled. I have not yet tried your approach of smoke then sous-vide. I'd like to see/taste the results of this, especially starting the cook as I usually do--MM then allow to climb to ~325. This might mitigate the effects of excess juiciness (can there be such a thing?--yes, I think so).

Side note: For briskets that won't fit flat, you can cram the ends between the grate handles allowing the center to bulge up. It will flatten as the brisket cooks and shrinkage occurs. If you wish, of course.
 
I'll do a search for the pastrami, thanks!

I do know about the ice bath dunk prior to storage - takes the meat rapidly through the 'danger zone.' In this particular instance, we ate the meat right after we opened the bags and we barely had any left over!

Another success we've had is COLD smoking salmon (in the WSM) using a soldering iron inserted in a tin can filled with wood (alder) chips. I think we cold smoked for 30 minutes before finishing it sous-vide. YUM!!!

Aileen
 

 

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