Current Smoke? HELP

OK, I put a 7lb. butt on at 4:00pm last night and everything went well until this morning. The last time I checked things was about 11:30am smoker was at about 230F. Woke up today the smoker was 125F and butt was 145F at about 7:00am. Do I have a bad smoke? Spoiled meat?

I got the fire back up very easy just shaking the coal and add a few. I really do not want to make a bunch of people sick.

Your Thoughts
Mike

Mike,
145° is not in the danger zone for bacteria.
That would be 40° - 140°, and for (I think) 2 hours or more.

However, that is not to say that it didn't drop into the danger zone while you were asleep. It seems unlikely, but you really don't have enough information to tell for sure.

In case you're interested, trichina has been all but bred out of domestic swine. That's the thing that 'Mom' warned us about in eating undercooked pork.

Another interesting thing to think about is...
If the meat is held within the danger zone for long enough for bacteria to start growing, there must be bacteria present, or (duh) nothing will grow.

Here's a good read on bacteria in a butt.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't worry.

P.S. If Kevin Kruger or Jim Minion, or someone knowledgable about such things reads this, I would like to hear them comment on the following:
How would new bacteria be introduced onto a butt in the WSM after all existing bacteria has been killed by the heat? Assuming the meat is not touched in any way.

--
Charles

You might be a redneck if...
You’ve ever eaten motor oil on pancakes.

Mike,

I'll let the food safety experts give the definitive answer, but ...

The same thing happened to me a couple weeks ago, WSM at 145F, meat at 135F when I got up. I just added charcoal and a new chimney full of lit coals and continued the cook. I eventually ran out of patience and foiled the butt and finished the cook in a 275F oven. The pulled pork was excellent. No one got sick. No one died.

Jim

Well, I have got things fired up again and the smoker is 250F and the but has raised to 180F.

Anone else give me advice?

Thanks
Mike

I think you're fine and I would not be concerned about consuming the product when it finishes.

Paul

You should be just fine.

The 40-140 guideline is an oversimplification of rather technical bacteriological data and is designed to be a sort of one-size-fits-all approach to food safety that is easy to remember. This guideline actually concerns surface temps as the risk of bacterial development within meat muscle is extremely small. However, in food products in which part(s) of the interior were once part(s) of the exterior surface (such as with ground meats, boned/rolled/tied roasts, etc.), casseroles, pots of beans and the like, and meats where foreign items were introduced (e.g., injected meats, Jaccarded meats and, technically, temp probed meats) internal temps are more important.

There are actually a variety of times and temps that can be used for equivalent bacterial reduction in foods. Without carrying on for pages I'd say that even though you introduced a foreign object into the interior of the meat (the probe) temps did not fall enough to be alarmed. (I think we can assume that it is quite unlikely that the interior dropped to the 120s then rose to 145 sometime before you checked--bacterial activity stops or slows dramatically at 125. I refer to 140 myself when I post on this subject because it is what most people have learned to remember.) This shows you what I mean by time, temp, and equivalent reduction:

130F 54C 112 minutes
135F 57C 35 minutes
140F 60C 12 minutes
145F 62C 4 minutes
150F 65C 1.5 minutes
165F 74C 2 seconds

It is quite likely that you exceeded the minute count for 145 and most likely did so at the 135 or 140 level.

Because it is highly unlikely that your meat dropped back into the danger zone of less than 130 I think you're fine.

Side bar: Just a reminder (this subject comes up from time to time)--holding hot foods for serving is where one can get into trouble. Keep hot food hot (140 or above to be safe). Leftovers are another major area of concern. If you cook 2 butts, say, and rest and pull them both, take what you are likely to eat and serve it promptly. Keep some hot (for second helpings), if desired, and put the rest in the fridge to cool while you're eating. Package and freeze or chill as soon as possible after that. I recommend laying the butt (or whatever your planning to store) on sheetpans or in shallow roasting pans in order to chill it more quickly. Food served on platters and in bowls (as opposed to in chafing dishes or with some other method to keep it hot while on the table) and allowed to sit out for a long period of time (during dinner, dessert, chatting around the table) should technically be discarded. The same applies to cold food that was served without any means to keep it cold. This, of course, does not mean that food allowed to sit out will cause problems, just that it is more likely (variables such as type of food, acidity and other issues come to play).

Kevin,
I don't understand the chart. Does it indicate how long bacteria can live at x temperature?

Also, could you comment on the "P.S." in my post upthread?

Charles--

The chart indicates the temp and the time a food item needs to remain at that temp to achieve the equivalent reduction in bacteria. For instance, a food item cooked to a temp of 130 and maintained at 130 for 112 minutes will achieve the same level of bacterial reduction as food cooked to 140 (and maintained there) for 12 minutes, or cooked to and maintains at 165 for 2 seconds.

Getting a bit technical (but answering your question upthread--sorry I missed it), not every bacterium is killed during cooking. Bacterial reduction is discussed technically as '-log cycles' often referred to as 'D', (e.g.,1-log10 [the 10 is expressed below the line which I can't do here] or 1D), which means a factor of 10 reduction in bacteria. The chart above represents temps and times required to achieve a 7-log10 (7D)factor reduction of bacteria (a factor reduction of 10,000,000). The FDA standard for foods to be cooked and held for a period of time before service is 6.5D for beef products, e.g., 7D for fowl; most just use 7D as the target). Many experts feel a 5D factor reduction (100,000 factor reduction) is sufficient for cook and serve applications but the 7D standard is what most people refer to. The longer the food is to be held or stored before eating the the more necessary the reduction in bacteria (to a higher D) because any bacteria remaining can grow back. Foods cooked and held for a longer period, such as canned products--are processed to 12D.

Looking at my first paragraph again just to recap--to achieve a 7D reduction in bacteria food must be cooked (and held) at 130 for 112 minutes or 140 for 12 minutes or 165 for 2 seconds. In all cases a 7D reduction is achieved. (I will note here that the times are a bit different when salmonella is considered, such as for chicken and turkey. In this case a 7D reduction in salmonella is achieved at 25.2 minutes @ 140 for chicken (28.1 minutes, turkey), 13.7 seconds @ 160 for chicken (25.6 seconds, turkey).

That is where the bacteria in your question come from: those that were not killed during cooking. We're not talking lots here and the number depends on finish temp and time at that temp, but bacteria can re-establish during holding.

Because time is such a huge factor in potential contamination situations care must be taken when food is held at a lower temps. More time, more risk. There are charts that delineate holding times for various foods at various temps (you see, the 40-140 is not actually carved in stone--the USDA makes this recommendation, and recommends finish temps, but it is the FDA that is actually charged with determining the data--they also do the enforcing!). Conversely, less time, less risk. This is why you can cook a steak rare (120) and eat it without issue. Pulling the steak from the fridge, prepping it on the counter, cooking it, plating and serving usually does not take all that long so you are well within a safe range time-wise. (Using similar criteria to the FDA code suggests the total time you'd have for this steak would be 5.6 hours but most of us would consider that stretching it--and most of us would take nowhere near that long.)

For info geared to the home chef (with a bunch of technical-esque stuff that is not at all daunting) this .pdf is worth downloading.

Hope this helps.

Thanks everyone. I did finish the butt took it off at 200F and wrapped in a cooler for about 45 minutes. We, my family and I, ate and so far so good. The butt was one of the better ones I have made but I still like the ribs better. I think some of the meat in a butt is too dark like dark chicken and white chicken meat. But overall the experience was a good one and I even used the new Kingsford.

Mike

Wow Kevin - I am again impressed with your overall knowledge!

RC

Well, I try.

I have food safety/service discussions fairly often on line and via email, especially with people who are or are thinking of opening a restaurant or catering business or the like, and with many home chefs who want a better understanding of food safety and suspect that there is more to it than the recommended internal finish temps and the 40-140 spread so often sited. There is; much more but it depends on many factors not noted by the USDA.

I have had numerous on line 'arguments' with people who steadfastly hold to the USDA recommendations and they are free to do so. Those numbers are easy to remember and if someone wishes to go no further with their understanding that is perfectly fine. I have no need to convince anyone of anything. What I don't like is when those numbers are treated as gospel. They aren't, and as noted above the USDA only makes recommendations, the FDA writes the codes. If someone wishes to cook a steak to 145 (the USDA minimum internal for beef often sited) that is certainly okay with me--so long as it's not my steak! The code has no iternal number for steak that is to be cooked and served immediately--none. The code states a 145 external temp for steak irrespective of internal and allows exceptions for steak tartare, sashimi and so forth but, of course, there are codes for product source, storage, prep, etc. for these types of items.

Many people who are in the industry (or are thinking of getting into it) need a better understanding of food safety than the simplistic recommendations of the USDA because they are going to be dealing with the health departments in the area they operate. Many health department employees are clueless when it comes to the FDA codes. What is also unfortunate is that in many place health departments require licensees to obtain food safety certification from state- or county-sponsored or proprietary organizations that teach the recommendations and not the codes. The codes are lengthy, technical, and a home chef might not need or be interested in the specifics but people in the business should have a good understanding of them and at the very least know they exist and where to locate them (here, btw). It should be noted that states and/or counties can have their own codes as well.

What is not stated often enough on food-oriented websites and many b-boards are the safety issues that are just as important as internal and external temps of cooked food. These issues--cooling of cooked foods, proper storage, reheating, cold food service, and most important, hand-washing and cross-contamination issues revolving around utensil use are not addressed often enough.

Kevin, Like Ray I reallllly appreciate all the info you provide. You make me think about issues that I wouldn't normally even consider such as cross contamination. Clean utensils and personal hygiene even though we make assumptions they are being adhered to it's never enough that we are reminded about basics.